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#1 Posted : 23 April 2009 12:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Russell Wilkinson I have a query about the right kind of gloves to supply for operatives who are using Galvanised Spray Paint.This is short duration spraying of cut unistrut.(less than a minute at a time,they have goggles and masks!!) The COSHH sheet states Xylene 8hr TWA 100ppm Acetone-*hr TWA 750 ppm 1 Methanoal 2 Propanol- 100ppm Butane-600 ppm The gloves in use are PVC. Does anyone know which type of gloves would be suitable?
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#2 Posted : 23 April 2009 13:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham Russell The only gloves that work with a combination of the chemicals you mention are butyl or the laminated type, such as the Safety 4H. Neither will provide protection for more than a few minutes and will need to be used once only, as permeation continues even after the exposure has ceased. If I can help any more just get in touch. Chris
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#3 Posted : 23 April 2009 13:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jack The MSDS should say which gloves are recommended. If not speak to the suppliers. Also his may help: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg330.pdf
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#4 Posted : 23 April 2009 13:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham I would always counsell caution on relying upon the recommendations re gloves on safety data sheets. A very large percentage of those I see are either completely wrong or insufficient either to provide you the information you need or even to meet the legal requirement. This is that the safety data sheet must show both the type of glove and the length of time for which it can be used. Chris
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#5 Posted : 23 April 2009 15:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By John J Russell, if its a shelf bought spray your more than likely ok with PVC gloves if that's what the manufacturer is recommending. The information that will help you determine this is the percentages of each of the constituent products. Its more than likely that some will be a tiny fraction of the product to the extent that their affect is negligible. Others, such as the propellant, will not really cause a contact problem as they are dispersed during the spray part. Regards, John
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#6 Posted : 23 April 2009 16:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham As the solvents are what makes the paint sufficiently liquid to be able to be sprayed it is probable that they will be present in a significant concentration. I would never recommend PVC for these two solvents as permeation is likely to be very rapid. Remember you cannot see or feel permeation, so you will need at least the glove manufacturer's permeation breakthrough times to identify a glove's suitability. Beyond this you will then also need to identify the many other factors (degradation, flexing, stretching, temperature, etc.) that can reduce this to a very short time. Acetone, for example, will permeate through a thin vinyl glove in just seconds, even though the glove may appear to be in good condition. Chris
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#7 Posted : 23 April 2009 16:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By clairel Russell, Sorry to be critical but can I raise two issues with you. 1) Please do not refer to the data sheet as a COSHH sheet. It isn't. It's a data sheet or a safety data sheet (SDS) or a materials safety data sheet (MSDS) but not a COSHH sheet. Sorry, I know it's picky but such things drive me nuts. 2) The ppm you quoted are completely irrelevant to this question as they relate to concentrations in air and are therefore irrelevant to what type of gloves to wear. Other than I can't recommend. However, for info a GOOD data sheet would tell you what gloves are suitable.
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#8 Posted : 23 April 2009 16:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By John J Russell, I've based my advice purely on speaking to our supplier of cold galvanising spray and knowing what percentages are in the product. They wrote and told us our PVC glove was ok for the work we were doing and the expected exposure time. That may be worth a try from your end, John.
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#9 Posted : 23 April 2009 17:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham John I have a document reviewing what is required when selecting gloves for protection against chemicals. If you would like a copy drop me an e-mail. Chris
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#10 Posted : 23 April 2009 17:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham Claire I couldn't agree more with your comments about safety data sheets. In addition, how do you know if the information on the safety data sheet is correct? Auditing one client recently I went through about 50 safety data sheets. Only one was correct in all respects. Incidentally this was the only one that gave the correct information on gloves! Some of the others didn't even have the correct risk phrases for the constituents. Indeed, one manufacturer had different risk phrases for the same substance on two separate data sheets (neither correct). Chris
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#11 Posted : 23 April 2009 17:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Russell Is significant contamination of the gloves likely during your spraying process? Paul
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#12 Posted : 23 April 2009 22:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By GaryC40 Chris, I do not doubt your expertise, however feel quite uneasy and concerned in regard to your comments on the accuracy of safety data sheets. How are we who are not quite as well versed as your good self able to devise suitable control measures if the source data is incorrect or incomplete? Where would one stand legally for example, if one followed the information supplied and harm occurred? For many, the safety data sheets are the cornerstone of risk assessments! Gary
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#13 Posted : 24 April 2009 08:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham Gary You have every right to feel uneasy. However, as has already been stated on this thread, safety data sheets are not intended for COSHH but for CHIP. Identifying the true chemical hazard in a workplace is not as simple as many assume. To go into all the reasons why I say this is beyond the scope of this forum, but if you would like a further explanation I have documentation on this, such as the notes to a presentation I gave recently to a local IOSH branch. I will happily e-mail these to you if you so wish. Incidentally, the Chemical Hazard Communication Society carried out a survey of, I believe, around 500 safety data sheets selected at random and less than 2% were accurate in all respects. Some of the inaccuracies were minor, but some were significant. This problem makes me wonder; if we cannot get accurate safety data sheets, what chance have we of getting accurate the, far more complicated, Exposure Scenarios under REACH? Chris
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#14 Posted : 24 April 2009 08:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Adam Worth I have to jump in a support Chris here. As a chemist even I sometimes find it hard to determine correct PPE based on differing information and opinion provided. This is why as safety practitioners we should strive to seek specialist help when unsure. Chris offers support and advice as a fellow IOSH member on these forums and it would not hurt to ask him further questions :) There are also many other 'free' resources, glove manufacturers for example can provide a wealth of knowledge on the suitability of their gloves for a certain purpose - phone a rep and use their expertise. A MSDS is definitely not a COSHH assessment - this almost drives me as mad as people saying PAT testing :)
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#15 Posted : 24 April 2009 09:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Adams. There is a way to validate the efficacy of gloves in use by using sensitive indicator pads. We use this supplier but there may be others found by using your favourite search engine http://www.skcltd.com/ca.../detail.php?item_id=3493 We have found that these are best used in conjunction with free advice from glove suppliers and helpful consultants (doffs cap to Mr Packham!!). These pads have been crucial in demonstrating to users that gloves are not necessarily an impenetrable barrier and establishing which are the best gloves for each situation.
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#16 Posted : 24 April 2009 12:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan Nicholls chris I would be interested in your notes to the presentation, if possible. Nearly finished my company COSHH presentations. Regards Alan
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#17 Posted : 27 April 2009 12:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By GaryC40 Hi Chris, can you please forward me your notes on this issue as we have a situation ongoing at the moment in regard to transferring chemicals. We have been using the MSDS sheets as the cornerstone of the RA and control measures required.
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#18 Posted : 27 April 2009 15:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Russell Wilkinson Thanks everyone for the responses, and the information e-mailed over to me.I am off to file my DATA SHEETS!!!
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