Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Admin  
#1 Posted : 16 June 2009 22:06:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By RP About to take down and dispose of a prefabricated portacabin type building which is around 20 years old and falling apart. A permanent building is to replace it and falls under CDM. a survey for asbestos done 4 years ago reported no asbestos present and no changes have be made since. Question: Prior to demolition or dismantling would an asbestos survey be required and if so at which level, i.e. 1, 2 or 3
Admin  
#2 Posted : 16 June 2009 22:35:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Ron Hunter Yes, Type 3 - or as the new version of MDHS 100 would have it, a refurbishment & demolition survey.
Admin  
#3 Posted : 17 June 2009 07:35:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Robert K Lewis Ron is spot on here. The fact that previous, lower level, surveys have failed to establish the presence of ACMs is not evidence that there is none present. As an aside there is no need to assert the new structure is subject to CDM - all construction work is so controlled - it is amatter of to what degree. Bob
Admin  
#4 Posted : 17 June 2009 10:59:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Southerner Or you could just get in touch with the manufacturer of the portacabin and ask them about the construction fabric of the unit. I have not see a cabin of any age that does not have a manufacturer plate riveted on the side.
Admin  
#5 Posted : 17 June 2009 17:41:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4 Could you be certain no asbestos has been installed after manufacture though?
Admin  
#6 Posted : 17 June 2009 19:05:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By RP Thank you for this valuable information.
Admin  
#7 Posted : 18 June 2009 07:10:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Adrian Watson Not necessarily, a survey is required if the building is likely to contain asbestos. A 1980's porta-cabin is not likely to contain asbestos; your type 2 survey has confirmed this fact. You therefore do not have to do a type 3 survey. Regards
Admin  
#8 Posted : 18 June 2009 09:00:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Rodger Alan Ker Mr. Watson, you are wrong, a type 2 survey is not sufficient for a demolition/construction project. Please read Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006, Regulation 4. Paragraph 51 of ACOP L143 states: "The employer should not simply rely on information provided by other dutyholders unless the dutyholder can produce reasonable evidence to confirm the validity of the information such as survey details (eg a type 3 survey is required for major refurbishment and removal work covered by the CDM Regulations."
Admin  
#9 Posted : 18 June 2009 09:19:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Ron Hunter Agreed. Such sweeping assumptions are entirely contrary to presumptive approach required by CAR.
Admin  
#10 Posted : 18 June 2009 10:17:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Haggis JM "a type 3 survey is required for major refurbishment and removal work" ...but does a single portacabin count as "major refurbishment and removal work"?
Admin  
#11 Posted : 18 June 2009 10:37:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Rodger Alan Ker Haggis The original post stated: "About to take down and dispose of a prefabricated portacabin type building which is around 20 years old and falling apart. A permanent building is to replace it and falls under CDM. a survey for asbestos done 4 years ago reported no asbestos present and no changes have be made since". Part of a CDM project, therefore a type 3 survey is required. I accept that it is appears to represent a small part of the project, but you cannot have met your "Regulation 4 obligations" without one.
Admin  
#12 Posted : 18 June 2009 10:52:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By MW RP, The consensus of opinion is correct. A type 3 is required. A couple of years ago, I went to survey a portacabin of similar description and was told on arrival that there was no asbestos and we were wasting our time... The portacabin was 20 metres long and 8 metres wide with numerous partitions... Every wall was asbestos cement and we found AIB behind every wall mounted electric heater! Hope this helps. Mark
Admin  
#13 Posted : 18 June 2009 15:16:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By gerryd21 Even though it is only a `port-a-cabin`, the fact that it is being entirely demolished means a type 3 (or refurbishment/ demolition) survey is required regardless of the size of the building. This type of survey should not cost much if it is a convetional small temporary building, e.g. cabin.
Admin  
#14 Posted : 18 June 2009 21:47:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By RP Thanks again for this information, i have also checked through several documents and a Type 3 survey is now planned. I note the comment on cement asbestos used behind electrical fittings. Looks like the wall heater has a painted panel behind it and could be of such material. The survey will be interesting and I will post back the outcome for future reference to all...
Admin  
#15 Posted : 23 June 2009 16:40:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By GeoffB4 Quote:Not necessarily, a survey is required if the building is likely to contain asbestos. A 1980's porta-cabin is not likely to contain asbestos; your type 2 survey has confirmed this fact. You therefore do not have to do a type 3 survey. A bit of worrying advice?
Admin  
#16 Posted : 25 June 2009 08:25:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Adrian Watson An employer shall not undertake work in demolition, maintenance, or any other work which exposes or is liable to expose his employees to asbestos in respect of any premises unless either - Dear All, Reg 5 states: (a) he has carried out a suitable and sufficient assessment as to whether asbestos, what type of asbestos, contained in what material and in what condition is present or is liable to be present in those premises; or (b) if there is doubt as to whether asbestos is present in those premises he - (i) assumes that asbestos is present, and that it is not chrysotile alone,and (ii) observes the applicable provisions of these Regulations. The point in this case is whether the assessment is suitable and sufficient; That depends on the fact. In this case it is a simple construction which has been surveyed. Furthermore Para 51 is not part of the acop it is guidance. Regards
Admin  
#17 Posted : 25 June 2009 09:52:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Kenneth Patrick What was the point in doing the survey four years ago?
Admin  
#18 Posted : 25 June 2009 13:03:00(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Admin

Posted By Dave Wilson Lets not get to hung up on this. Point 1 These types of temporary structures have had asbestos in them - Fact. (unless you have the manufactures data)so ACM could be 'embedded in the structure! Point 2 - would a 4 year old type 2 have found these? YES - then NFA required NO - Then a type 3 survey needs to be undertaken.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.