Posted By Swis One thing to make clear, I am not against anyone asking a basic question on health and safety but those who promote 'fun police' kind of attitude on the name of health and safety.

Posted By June-bug In my opinion and mine only - instead of assuming someone is belittling the profession and that this is just a stupid question - why not point out why you find the question alarming, and offer a constructive response. Like Catman stated in a thread on the members forum, and I quote: ‘Generally, telling people to use handrails is interference. But... Seeing someone carry a big stack of folders down an icy stairwell is where we should get involved. Effective H&S Management is having a workforce that knows the difference between the two scenarios without you telling them. I think interference fires a damaging torpedo into your efforts to build a H&S culture. With the 'always use the bannister model' you end up with two distinct groups 'workers' and 'safety policemen'. (from my experience) When really we should be looking at empowering everyone to make sensible decisions about H&S.’ I love this post – Why? Because Catman simply and brillaintly does two things, explains why this question is of concern and what we should be aiming for. It’s straight to the point, shows where the poster possibley went wrong and why, and what he/she should be aiming for instead. Another good one from Pete48: ‘It also means that unless a comment is clearly offensive or aggressive then the questioner should listen to the answer given and decide on the worth not judge the responder. Just had to share. My own view. Right on……………….nuff said.

Posted By peter gotch 1 Swis Most orgnisations working towards Zero Accidents probably have a 100% hold onto the handrail policy. The real issues are: 1. Does the organisation have adequate regard to process safety issues? - the high consequence, low probability scenario - reconised by National Grid Transco in very honest paper in - I think - Health and Safety at Work magazine. 2. Do the workforce buy in to recognition of top management real ownership of broader HSW issues? 3. Are targets for improvement "SMART"? 4, Do targets not only look at trailing indicators (accidents, enforcement etc) but also leading indicators (e.g. trainng days, workforce suggestions)? Regards, Peter

Posted By Rich Bannister As the OP on that particular thread, please don't accuse me of belittling our profession. No one on these boards has knowledge of where I am working or what the particular hazards are. Hazards and their consequences are in context. The hazards on other's sites may seem inconsequential to me but be of the highest priority for those on that site. And for the avoidance of doubt, I am an IOSH member and I do work in a relatively high risk industry. If you go back to the original posting, I am quite truly amazed at how much discussion has spawned from a simple request for photos to help with a site campaign. There was never a request to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of highlighting the hazards (or lack thereof) associated with walking with hands in pockets. With regards being a part of the "fun police", I don't particularly see trying to prevent a broken wrist and collar bone (as detailed by one contributor) being of that ilk. Whilst the consequences may not be on par with the Piper Alpha or the Texas City Refinery disasters, they are in my view still worthy of attention. Sometimes we focus on the major risks and we fall foul of the minor ones. When I first started in the work place, I joined a company where they had had no reported accidents in 2 years. Then the boss' secretary fell down the stairs, broke both wrists and was off work for 2 months. Sometimes, the workforce cannot identify a simple hazard until it is pointed out to them; whether it be something related to climbing the stairs or working on an oil rig. Sometimes an experienced scaffolder can't see the dangers of falls from height as "he's always done it like that" or any other of a multitude of excuses. Would it be interfering to conduct a campaign on this? "Hands in Pockets" is one of the more minor hazards on this particular site, but one which we are addressing nonetheless. This is part of a wider campaign to educate the workforce in risk management. And, as the saying goes: the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. If this appears to anyone reading to be "cotton wool" or bonkers-conkers, I have no apology to make: I am committed to eliminating workplace accidents in areas under my guidance and I will do everything within my capabilities to make that so. Whether that will ever be achieved is something I am working on! Thanks to those that have read this far and thanks to those that have contacted me off the forums offering assistance. All above offered in a thought provoking and non-antagonistic manner.

Posted By Heather Collins Forgive me for pointing out the obvious Swis but in your first post on THIS thread you ARE targeting the OP from the thread that (quite innocently) started all this. You wrote: "...and a safety advisor belittling our profession by asking petty questions (i,e hands in pocket) and not willing to get antagonized by offended fellows." As you said - maybe the problem is that people simply don't read what's written.....

Posted By martinw Swis how do we fill in the gaps when your posts are removed, as they have been on occasion recently?

Posted By martinw 'People like me'? Interesting comment there Swis. Perhaps says more about you than you may think. Just because someone asks a question you don't like, it does not require a condescending or belittling response. And I will look out to see how many of your posts remain visible.

Posted By Heather Collins I've read all the posts in this extended series very carefully thanks. I don't respond to a thread like this without being very sure of what I want to say. I did not think your second post in this thread "cleared up" anything. Changing one word does not alter the fact that you used the original "hands in pockets" question as an example of "a petty question". Who are any of us (except the person asking the question) to judge whether a question is petty or not in certain circumstances? So back on topic then "when does a query become an annoyance?" I honestly think that if we are simply talking about responding to a question on a forum it does not matter what the answer is. If an individual finds the query annoying then they should not respond. Simple really.

Posted By Anthony Edwards Remember there is no such thing as a stupid question! You either know the answer or yo do not. What annoys one person will not necessary annoy another so carry on the debate.

Posted By Swis Heather, Your comments; "If an individual finds the query annoying then they should not respond. Simple really." If you found my posts annoying then why didn't you ignore them. Why did you feel the urge to make comments. We do different to what we preach, don't we?

Posted By Heather Collins "At least I wasn’t belittling the safety professional who are non-members." I take very strong exception to this Swis. I have no axe to grind for or against IOSH Membership and those in the profession who know me will be well aware of this. You don't and you aren't. I continue to respond to your posts because I wish to, not because they annoy me. I do not believe you have the right to decide who responds to you if you choose to post in public. I agree that the Mods should probably lock this thred though.

Posted By Heather Collins Thanks Swis - apology accepted (I could have phrased some of my responses more calmly too!) and I totally respect your right to disagree with my second post. I think we're talking at slight cross purposes there anyway. What I need now is the "big hugs all round" smiley to prove that we've made up! (( O )) ----------- This will have to do

Posted By Heather Collins I didn't see many fragile egos in here David - have you got the right thread? Mind you, we women always want to have the last word - you should know that ;-)

Posted By D H It always amazes me that when someone digs a hole, and someone else tries to tell them that they are digging a hole, it gets deeper? Dave