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Posted By Bob Y
A while ago I attended an LGR conference and a speaker there talked about the 4 c's of health and safety (I am not talking about the 4 c's of food safety) in which he said something along the lines of employers being either:
Compliant
Concerned
Careless
C?
Has anybody heard of this and can shed anymore light on it please?
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Posted By Peter Zunda
Only as;
Competence, Control, Co-operation and Communication.
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Posted By al wood
communication
competence
co-operation
control
from HSG 65 if my memory serves me right (and not necessarily in that order).
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Posted By peter gotch
Hi Bob
My 4 Cs are
Communication
Co-operation
Co-ordination
- from the Management Regs which are effectively the parent to CDM
Construction
wherein you do not only have to do the 3 Cs with those working alongside you, but also in relation to others in the project team.
Regards, Peter
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Posted By Nicholas Sutcliffe
Concerned????????
Careless????????
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Posted By Swis
ahha..
it's
complaint!!!
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Posted By Phil Rose
I went to an LGR conference on Corporate manslaughter where a safety manager from another LA, Barnsley or perhaps Bolton, I may have my old notes somewhere and will have a look at work tomorrow.
What he was saying was that employers tend to have a number of approaches to health and safety and that they were either:
Compliant (merely seeking to comply with legislation), Concerned (but maybe not doing too much about it) and I can't remember the other 2 but careless does ring a bell.
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Posted By John Taylor
competent
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Couldn't care less.
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Posted By CFT
Oh Ron ... what are you like:-) That was only two c's and one L! :-)
Charley
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Posted By Ron Hunter
That was actually a serious suggestion!
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Posted By Roly Buss
Bob Y
Enjoyed the other responses to your question, but now for the serious bit.
The 4Cs are indeed from HSG65 Successful h&s management.
They are
- Methods of CONTROL within the organisation
- Means of securing CO-OPERATION between individuals and groups
- Methods of COMMUNICATION throughout the organisation
- The COMPETENCE of individuals, at all levels
The 4Cs are the keys to improving h&s in an organisation, enabling the creation of a positive h&s culture.
There is a lot in HSG65 (much of which will send you to sleep), but these key principles really help companies to take CONTROL of h&S.
The new HSE Strategy incorporates the 4Cs (indirectly) in the advice to companies of how to get h&s under control.
Hope this helps - give it a try and see
Roly
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Posted By srd
Complacent ?
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Posted By Bob Y
Thanks for the various responses so far. The c's (there may have been more than 4) were I believe something that this particular safety manager may have invented for himself, so not the c's used in hsg 65 or CDM, they were intended to describe the employers approach or attitude to health and safety.
And I think that "complacent" (thanks SRD) as well as something like "couldn't care less" (thanks Ron)may well have been one of them. So something along the lines of
Compliant
Concerned
Complacent
Couldn't care less
I wanted to use this for a report to our senior managers and get them to indicate what sort of employer they thought we were!
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Posted By Joel Benham
I would suggest that there is a 5th C which is implied, but often never stated - Commitment.
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Posted By Pete48
Bob, sound to me like a variation of the various route map approaches to determining where the culture is.
I think it was Shell who produced one that used terms like:
Pathological, who cares as long as we are not caught.
Reactive. It's important to us, we do loads every time we have an accident.
Controlling. We have systems in place to control risk.
Proactive. We recognise we have constant work to do on any new problems we find.
Generative. Safety? Its just the way we do everyday things.
Doesn't fit your 4 C but sounds like the same thing.
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Posted By Bob Y
Hi all - just back from holiday and have managed to contact the person that gave the presentation who has now given me the answer I was looking for and his permission to reproduce here. so here goes (I have added a couple of little bits as well). Be interesting to know where you think your organisation sits.
CRIMINAL - do nothing, know exactly what they are doing and are quite aware of the fact they are in breach of the statutory duties (and presumably are willing to accept the consequences - pure risk retention)
CARELESS - not deliberately breaching their statutory duties, but not really doing anything to actively manage health and safety in the organisation
COMPLIANT - comply with their statutory duties and no more, do the legal minimum. CATNAP – Cheapest Available Technique Not Attracting Prosecution! I just love that!
COMMITTED - comply with their statutory duties and much more, believe and understand in the business benefits of investing in health and safety and it is embedded into their organisational culture.
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Posted By Swis
Welldone Flic.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Bob
The four Cs in your last post is with regards to the safety culture of the organisation. I have seen something similar from HSE documentation. Another one was in an article a few years back by a chap named Gault, which identified a typology of cultural characteristics.
Ray
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Posted By Pete48
Thanks for that Bob. It is the same process as the route map approach but it looks much sharper as 4 "c".
I have used it to start off and subsequently measure where a group of managers think they are and then to drive improvement towards a target within those 4 "c" that they determine. A very powerful and effective way to get them to plan a way forward and to fully appreciate where the company is without having to fully understand all the horrible boring safety stuff before they start to plan.
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Posted By Larry
Larry goes by:
Communication
Co-operation
Co-ordination
Control
Larry prefers the 6P's.
Larry
xox
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Posted By Pete48
Larry but are they not mutually supportive?
One measures where you are and helps define where you want to be, the other identifies the tools for getting there?
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Posted By Larry
The 6P's are........
Larry
xoxox
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Posted By Phil Rose
Prior, Planning, Prevents etc etc ?
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Posted By Larry
Pete.
The 4C's has it roots set in military doctrine.
Communicate with your allies.
Co-operate with your allies.
Co-ordinate your attack with your allies.
And you shall have control.
Same for H/S, environmental etc, etc.
Larry..
xox
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Posted By Haggis JM
Communicate with your allies.
Co-operate with your allies.
Co-ordinate your attack with your allies...
and the US version - dump on your allies!
I think the 4th C should be 'clueless'...
:o)
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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Larry, I believe the 6 p's are:
Proper Planning Prevents Pretty Poor Performance.
Good post, cheers for those who contributed.
Mark
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Posted By Bob Y
Yes, thanks for all the contributions, a surprisingly non contentious post. From my previous life in the RAF, Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance.
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Posted By Pete48
Pete reads Larry's post
Pete thinks Larry looks only one way.
Pete says 6p is not enough, even though inflation has increased it from 5p.
Pete says 4c is there as well.
Pete says 4c is not 4c as Larry says.
Pete says Bobs 4c is map not action.
Pete learnt that to get anywhere you need to know where you are starting from.
Pete thinks even military need maps.
I wonder what Simon says?
No, I don't really and I have not particularly enjoyed replying in this style anymore than I enjoyed reading this style but I guess we have to respect each others choice of style.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Pete, 'hear hear' - it is beginning to grate!
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