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Posted By KB
Good afternoon
I have a question on fire within an office environment.
I have a workplace that uses an independent fire services provider e.g. fire extinguishers and servicing. The independent company have said that the office does not need fire extinguishers anymore if they place a plan on the office walls both upstairs and down showing emergency escape routes.
This does not sound correct to me and I have checked in the legislation but I am still not sure.
Can anyone help or advise please?
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
I am not aware of any duty to provide fire extinguishers. That said, any removal of such equipment should be justified and articulated in the building FRA. I would not be happy with the removal of fire extinguishers either as a occupier or a landlord.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I may like to comment?
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Posted By Fred Pratley
RRO states
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13. —(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
No doubt you have electrical equipment in these premises (3rd largest cause of fires I believe)
And I would make a bet it is a condition of your insurance that fire extinguishers must be provided
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Posted By Messy Shaw
It is down to the responsible person - in this case almost certainly your employer- to carry out a fire risk assessment, and it's the results of that assessment which will determine whether any extinguishers, and if so what type & how many, will be required.
It is definitely not anyone else's job to say what is and isn't required (unless they have been bough in to complete the FRA)
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Posted By al wood
is anyone trained to use the fire extinguishers you mention?
if not then why have them.
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Posted By Crim
Is anyone trained to use the photo copier?
Is anyone trained to use the microwave?
Is anyone trained to use the telephone?
If not why have them?
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Posted By al wood
crim
you seem to have missed the point here
if someone attempts to put out a fire who is not adequately trained in the use the fire extinguisher(s) and keeps attempting to fight the fire even when it is out of control they may become trapped in the burning building.
training would inform them when to stop.
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Posted By tdunbar
"RRO states
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13. —(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
No doubt you have electrical equipment in these premises (3rd largest cause of fires I believe)
And I would make a bet it is a condition of your insurance that fire extinguishers must be provided"
What are you trying to say Fred?
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Posted By KB
Thank you all for your prompt responses once again your knowledge is greatly accepted.
Thank you again everyone.
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Posted By Fred Pratley
Apologies if my previous post was unclear,
my point was the RRO states that if there is a hazard, you must have the right extinguisher, and an office invariably will have electrical hazards, thus extinguishers are required.
Also, it is a common requirement of insurance that suitable fire precautions are in place - i.e. extinguishers etc.
So even if the extinguisher service company is correct in stating that a poster of exits etc will do, I doubt it meets insurance requirements and that could invalidate your policy.
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Posted By tdunbar
Hi Fred
This comment will start a war but I have to say there is no statutory requirement for fire extinguishers to be provided in the workplace.
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Posted By Crim
Al, not missed the point but fed up with people who don't understand fire risk and who are in a position of responsibility.
Of course training is required, if nothing else extinguishers are work equipment and the Regs. require training.
My point is a micro wave cooker can blind or cook your insides if not used correctly, a photocopier can electrocute and be fatal if used incorrectly etc. If you don't know how to use the phone how can you call fire brigade when needed? How many of these areas have documented training?
It would be stupid not to provide fire extinguishers in any building as long as they are the correct type for the risk.
Anyone carrying out a fire risk assessment will come across hazards and should always provide fire protection for the risks.
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Posted By Peter Still
Al,
I'm with Crim on this one. I had some training in the use of extinguishers some years ago, but I don't think it left me competent to judge when the fire had got beyond my control. We were taught that if the fire wasn't contained, and couldn't be extinguished within a few seconds, to abandon the attempt to fight it and evacuate the building.
Peter
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Posted By Crim
Thanks for your support Peter.
You are right, if a fire is not tackled immediately it will get out of hand.
Surely it is better to have extinguishers to hand otherwise you just evacuate all personnel and watch your employment go up in smoke.
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Posted By tdunbar
Is anyone trained to use the photo copier?
Answer, No we don't have one but do we still need to do the training?
Is anyone trained to use the microwave?
Answer, No because staff are not allowed to have one. Do we still need to train?
Is anyone trained to use the telephone?
Answer, No because we don't have phones but do we still need to train because every body else seems to have them?
If not why have them?
Well that's the big question isn't it? If there is no requirement to have the equipment can we just not bother training people to use something we don't have, need nor want?
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Posted By Mark Johnson
I would be interested in knowing if anybody here has ever recommended that fire extinguishers are not required when doing a fire risk assessment?
There may not be an absolute duty to provided extinguishers but there is a duty to provided appropriate fire precautions which may include extinguishers.
KB, there should be some justification in the fire risk assessment so I suggest you take a look and see if that can make matters clearer for you. (i.e. are there other measures such as sprinklers installed?)
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Posted By al wood
crim
having undertaken fire risk assessments i am fully aware that in certain circumstances fire extinguishers may well be needed i.e.industrial premises etc and the need for training in such equipment is of paramount importance or you could have someone attempting to put out an electrical fire with a water fire extinguisher for example.
fire extinguishers are not required in all instances where there is little or no risk from fire and this would clearly be determined from the findings of your fire risk assessment. i have also had this confirmed during a visit from the local fire brigade.
dont know of anyone whom has had training in the safe operation of a microwave but i am sure there is a course being ran out there somewhere by some enterprising organisation.
al w
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Posted By KB
To clarify the staff have full training in all aspects fire fighting, fire wardens, fire marshalls, first aid and emergency response.
The comment that fire extiguishers are not required is from an independant company that provides the facilities within this office environment.
Insurance is being checked on and I have passed on your advice to my colleague who asked the question of me in the first place.
As for the comment about being fed up with people who comment on fire and know nothing about it I thought that is why we have a forum so we can hep each other with answers we do not know.
I have been in safety too many years to try and 'blag' someone with an answer. I am always learning more and more and if I ever do not know anything I will ask the people who can help (IOSH forum).
Thank you again for all of your responses I really appreciate your feedback but did not mean to start a debate I just needed an answer and general thoughts which I have gladly received.
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Posted By Crim
The guide to offics and shops fire risk assessment states that you must provide appropriate information, instruction etc. about the fire precautions in your workplace etc.
That as far as I am concerned is a "requirement"!
The guide also states "you have responsibility for the provision of appropriate firefighting equipment" etc.
I am unable to see at present where it states anything about choosing not to provide firefighting equipment?
On your own head be it!
I apologise for my little rant earlier and do agree that this forum is used for gaining information.
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Posted By DaGuru
If we dont have Fire Extinguishers in the workplace, how on earth can we prop doors open?
:P
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Posted By Crim
This afternoon I spoke to a fire officer who is currently auditing fire risk assessment throughout his Brigade's area.
He told me that there must always be fire fighting equipment provided and that means at least one fire extinguisher.
There has been recent further guidance to Fire Authorities on their work re FRA's and all Brigades will be consistent.
I hope this answers the original question however regarding the previous post about holding doors open, this is what I mean about non competent people making contributions to this a professional forum.
While I do enjoy a joke as much as the next man I hope nobody living in the London area has seen that remark!
I bet everyone living in tower blocks wishes they had a fire extinguisher to hand?
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Posted By tdunbar
We will never know for sure Crim until the appeal court says so. Until then we all have the correct legal interpretation.
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Posted By martinw
Crim, have a look at the 2008 LACORS Housing - Fire Safety document. Within this guidance it says that it is problematic to have a fire extinguisher in the common areas of flats unless there is someone there all the time such as a caretaker. If that is not the case, then there are training issues, it is a potetial trip hazard, it could cause someone to stop and try to fight a fire when unsafe etc etc.
The person you spoke to was giving his interpretation. The LACORS published guidance gives a different one. Who'd give fire guidance?
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Posted By GeoffB4
My point is a micro wave cooker can blind or cook your insides if not used correctly.
Wow Crim, that is some statement. Could we have some figures of how many people have had their insides cooked, to support it. ;-)
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Posted By tdunbar
Crim said "I am unable to see at present where it states anything about choosing not to provide firefighting equipment?"
It does allude to it in the RRO Crim. Where necessary fire fighting equipment etc etc. If employees are instructed by employers that in the event of a fire their only course of action is to evacute immediately closing any dooors and leave the fire to the F&R Service then why is it necessary (there's that word again) to provide such equipment.
Likewise I am unable to find where it says that there is a legal obligation for employees/tenents/residents to fight fires.
I take it you are a fire extinguisher salesman?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Surely no employer would give an instruction to staff not to tackle a fire regardless!
I can understand some degree of commonsense being applied, so if a fire is 'big' then evacuate but if the fire is 'small' do we really need to evacuate and leave it to the professionals?
Let's take a flame no bigger than a tea candle. Would you ask your staff to evacuate? If so you may be putting the lives of firefighters at risk because by the time they arrive the fire may well involve an entire floor and maybe risking collapse of the building. So if you adopt a commonsense approach (and of course this does depend on the risk, a small flame in a fireworks factory is far more significant than one in an office environment) then the majority of people would advise that a 'small' fire can be tackled by staff. In which case it can be argued that in the majority of cases a portable fire extinguisher is necessary.
This was very much the line that was debated between ministers and their professional advisers when the RRO was being debated. I suggest readers of this thread read the evidence that was put forward to the ministers before the RRO came into force. You will see that there would be very few instances where it would be considered that portable fire extinguishers would not be necessary.
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Posted By JohnV
I think people sometimes forget about the single most important reason for providing fire extinguishers in the workplace: namely to enable people to use their means of escape and to get out. They are not (at least as far as the Fire Brigade are concerned) there to save property, they are there to save life.
If your only means of escape are threatened by a developing fire, and by using an extinguisher you can make the situation temporarily safer so that you can get out of the building, then the extinguisher has served it's purpose. (That is why the guidance tells us to place them near exits).
It therefore makes sense to train some of the building inhabitants in their correct use and to refresh that training periodically.
Cheers.
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Posted By Messy Shaw
Shaun - There is an increasing amount of employers who are indeed happy not to have FFE in their premises as they see that it cuts down costs to them (training and maintenance) and reduces the liability if anyone is injured whilst firefighting.
I have been asked to engineer the FRA around this business aim. Of course, I would never enter into conducting a FRA with any conditions.
However, as I am sure you know, Operational firefighters are not relevant persons so their safety does not need to be considered (with the exception of provisions within Article 37 & 38 of the RRO) when drawing up the FRA - and especially when determining what FFE to provide
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Messy
You are correct that firefighters are not relevant persons when they are undertaking operational firefighting duties, they are relevant persons in all other circumstances including having a 'safe' working environment, that is to say the building should remaining structurally safe for a reasonable period of time. However this was not the point I was trying to get across. My point was that adopting the approach of 'get out' even for the smallest fire may cause more injuries than it prevents whether this be to firefighters entering the building or to other occupants who may have to descend a number of floors to pass the floor of the fire before reaching a place of safety.
You will know as a professional in fire safety that the issue of fire extinguishers was hotly debated during the pre RRO debates. The upshot was that it would be very difficult to proove that portable fire extinguishers would not be necessary. In my view the approach being taken by the people you are referring to is likely to come unstuck.
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Posted By tdunbar
If fire fighting equipment is needed for means of escape purposes why is it located at storey and final exits? Why not somewhere in the middle?
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Posted By al wood
what about the circumstances as mentioned by martinw. fire extinguishers in these types of buildings can be subject to abuse i.e. being set off for fun, if this is the case they are rendered useless.
i know that they should be regularly inspected but from my own experience in problem buildings it is really difficult to keep on top of this and can develop into a full time and job.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Al - the circumstances in martinw's comment is that the degree of fire separation between residential units would normally expect to provide a minimum of 1 hour fire resistance. A fire within a residential unit would normally be confined to that unit, at least for a reasonable period of time and occupants of other units could stay put. The common areas, although classified as a workplace, do not normally present a significant fire risk and generally only have people working in them for short periods of time. Therefore in such circumstances these workplaces are deemed to be so low risk that the provision of extinguishers is considered not necessary. Having said that the result of the fire in South London last week my have repercussions with respect to the provision of extinguishers in the common areas.
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Posted By Crim
TDunbar, I am not a fire extinguisher salesman however I did try that once and lasted a few days, a bit too cut throat for my liking.
24 years with a local authority fire brigade followed by 19 years now in health and safety.
I am a health and safety adviser and always try the best for my client.
A few of the more recent responses agree with my view that extinguishers are necessary, further I spoke to an ex colleague of mine yesterday, he works in the fire safety department of the local fire brigade and his current role is to audit fire risk assessments by visiting premises, examining the fra, comparing the fra with the actual situation and awarding points according to a recognised system. The quality of the risk assessment depends on the number of points totalled. I'm sure you get the drift?
During his visits he will expect to see at least one extinguisher even in the smallest premises, this is consistent among all Brigades throughout the country as they are all working to recent amended Home office guidance.
If no extinguishers present the FRA is marked down!
That's good enough for me!
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Posted By martinw
Shaun - spot on as usual. I was , as you noticed, being very specific regarding the common areas of flats. Others should bear in mind that requirements from building regs change - common areas of flats built 2007 did not have the same requirements for fire detection systems than those new builds constructed since 2007. But your advice is absolutely spot on and echoes that which I have been given seperately from enforcement officers from 4 different fire services. Respect and kudos
Martin
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Posted By Crim
I forgot to mention during the audit he will also look for evidence of training in the use of the fire equipment provided, no records means more bad marks.
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Posted By Crim
Fire safety officers are not allowed to give personal opinions, just like health and safety inspectore. They work according to Regulations.
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Posted By martinw
They do, but they work with guidance: the same guidance which fire risk assessors have to use when making risk assessments. Nothing is difinitive any more and there are no more fire certificates.
Much more difficult to say that you are doing the right thing as it is down to risk assessment based on the circumstances. And that is down to perception. I do not have the 20 years experience of fire enforcement that the folks looking at my FRA's have so I have to do the best I can, based on guidance. Really difficult at times, but you and I could justify different recommendations but both feel justified that we are both in the right. As the caveats always say, it can only be sorted out in a court of law for interpretational purposes.
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Posted By al wood
shaun
i totally agree with you totally.
al w
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Posted By Ron Hunter
My, what a feisty thread!
KB, somewhere above, Crim touched the nub of the matter: Far better to pay for the upkeep of a couple of extinguishers and to train your people how (and when) to use them, than for all concerned to stand in the car park and watch their livelihood go up in flames.
Strange that a service company would be so keen to talk its way out of business? Did this advice come from their Head Office, or from some potentially disgruntled employee perhaps?
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Posted By GeoffB4
I haven't got over the chance of cooking my insides with a microwave oven yet - it's quite worrying!
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