Posted By Paul Durkin Hi All, A 21 yo medical student @ Sussex University, died after taking a paint-stripper/ cleaner containing Gamma-Butoxyrolacetone (GBL) in Brighton last month,this drug and the possibility of a ban was mentioned on the TV last night.Apparently GBL has a similar effect to the date rape drug GHB,made illegal in 2003.Prof Nutt chairman of The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD),stated recently . "It is well known that we made a strong recommendation that it should be controlled and we are hoping that will be happening very shortly," he added that GBL was "unquestionably dangerous" . GBL - which is used as an industrial solvent - can be bought on the Internet for as little as 10 pence a dose. Because it is used in the plastics industry, as a nail polish remover and to clean bicycle chains, officials have been delayed in framing the legislation while they consult industry. So my question; What can we do as the major H&S body in the UK / World to assist in getting this stuff banned? Surely there are other paint-strippers / cleaners available? It has already been banned for personal use in America, Canada and Sweden.So why not the UK? Regards,Paul

Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks, But 'every little helps' Regards,Paul

Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks Andy, Try telling that to the dead girl's parents. Regards,paul

Posted By Jim Tassell (2) This is one of the many chemicals that, in the wrong hands or in the wrong circumstances can have disastrous effects. BTW it's ...lactone. The challenge is how it gets classified under CHIP/REACH systems and whether a possible classification as a drug might conflict with that. At this point I think we should defer to those members who specialise in this field.

Posted By Graham Bullough Andy Petrie is correct with his reasoning about IOSH, etc. not getting involved in calling for bans on substances. He’s also correct with his closing comments that banning substances will have little effect on those who wish to misuse them. Yes, the death of the young woman in Brighton was a tragedy, as are all substance misuse deaths. I knew nothing about the Brighton case until I saw this thread, so found a detailed press report issued yesterday about the inquest at http://www.theargus.co.u...__inquest_hears/?ref=rss The Brighton case was especially tragic because it seems that the young woman probably had a better idea than most people about the effects of substances. Her father is a medical doctor, her mother a nutritionist, and she was studying molecular medicine. The inquest mentions that a flatmate and her elder brother gave evidence that she had previously taken “recreational” drugs including ecstasy. However, she had not previously taken GBL until her boyfriend offered her some after obtaining it through the internet. He admitted at the inquest that internet information made it clear that the substance was not for human consumption. Even so, it seems evident that he bought the GBL with the intention of using it himself as a drug and offering it to his girlfriend. If he had not been able to obtain the GBL, no doubt there are numerous other substances, illicit or otherwise, which he could have obtained. The medical evidence was that the amount of GBL the young woman had consumed was relatively low. However, it had proved fatal in combination with alcohol (a legal drug) which she had also taken. It seems that the crux of the problem with substances is how to effectively persuade people (especially young people who tend to think that they know it all and somehow are immune to harm) not to abuse themselves by misusing substances. This includes legal substances like alcohol which is enjoyable and even considered to be beneficial for most people in moderate and appropriately timed doses. Alcohol also played a part in the young woman’s death, so should there be an additional call for alcohol to be banned? Any such call would have no chance of succeeding, not least because the government reaps considerable amounts of tax revenue from it. What is it about life in the UK nowadays which prompts significant numbers of young people to obtain “highs” from “recreational/party” drugs and/or blank their minds through binge drinking, despite publicity about the risks posed to their health, never mind impairing their wealth and attracting police attention?

Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks All,particularly Graham.So we are against a ban.What about the ancient discouragement of adding a stenching agent.I can remember Pyridine being added to Meths to discourage drinking.Pyridine would give it a colour,STINK and a bitter taste.I cannot imagine young ladies drinking it within a brown paper bag. Regards,Paul

Posted By Graham Bullough Paul - I didn't write that I was against a ban. Along with other responders my view was that a ban on GBL would have little or no effect on people wanting to misuse it. However, in your latest message you mentioned that methylated spirits contains an additive to make it unpalatable. This prompted me to search on the internet for details about bittering agents and led me to the website of a fairly well known firm which says it produces and sells the most effective bittering agent known to man. Though inert and odourless, the product is detectable at 10 parts per billion (ppb) and notably bitter to human taste at 50ppb, and is used in a very wide range of products and chemicals. The website is worth a look and mentions that in some countries there are laws requiring specified types of products and chemicals to contain a bittering agent. To avoid breaching AUG 3 by specifically naming the company (with which I’ve no connection) the website can be readily be found by searching for “bitter stuff”. Thus, rather than seek a ban on GBL surely it would be far better to campaign for it and other misused products to have bittering agents (alternatively known as "aversive agents") added to them! However, there’s a slight niggle in my mind. The detailed press webpage (see my earlier posting) about the recent Brighton inquest reported that the young woman’s boyfriend said that she placed a mango in her mouth because of the GBL’s foul taste. Therefore, could it be that the GBL she consumed already contained a bittering agent and that, sadly, it could not deter her and others from consuming it? Curiously, when I searched on the internet for denatonium benzoate, the chemical name for the bittering agent (discovered during research in Edinburgh in 1958), the first website which appears is a data sheet by Oxford University which classifies it as “toxic”. This serves as a reminder that dosage (i.e. what amounts and over what time) is an important aspect when considering how harmful or not any substance is. Apparently water can be harmful and even fatal to people if they drink large volumes of it over a short period of time. Among other effects I understand that water significantly dilutes one’s blood, impairs critical chemical balances within the body and causes symptoms similar to alcohol intoxication. Also the mention of methylated spirits reminds me that when I lived and worked in Scotland from 1977 to 1987 the law required shops to keep a register to be signed by all purchasers of the stuff, including name, full home address, volume bought and intended purpose. In my case I bought the stuff for priming mountaineering paraffin stoves and removing ballpoint ink stains. I recall sometimes deliberately writing obscure or even fictitious words to describe my proposed uses and that no shop assistant ever queried them. Perhaps nobody in the shops actually looked at what purchasers wrote in the register or felt inclined to challenge what had been written. As there was no apparent need for purchasers to provide proof of identity and home address, the whole exercise seemed to be pointless. Can anyone in Scotland advise if the meths register law still exists or has been repealed?

Posted By Andy Petrie I got talking to someone about this while out last night, he said that he'd taken both GHB & GBL and that they taste foul and stink anyway, but they get through that and the high is worth it.

Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks Andy, Seems you have made a better case than a ban,if it won't be used as a paint stripper it will ban itself.If pyridine were used as the stenching agent it has a pungent odour derived from coal tar. However,as paint-strippers containing DCM are also to be banned( see below)worried now about their availability.Hence back to my old Blowtorch http://www.hse.gov.uk/ab...iers/dichloromethane.htm Regards,Paul

Posted By FAH Paul, this is an extremely emotive story & consequently extremely difficult to view dispassionately in any way. Please don't take my subsequent view to be at all personal - it very definitely is not. I have great sympathy with both the deceased & her family; however, we simply cannot ban stuff because a very small minority of people misue or abuse it! We ban guns & knives in public places; we ban under age drinking of alcohol - but these bans don't seem to change anything! There has to be a recognition that personal responsibility, coupled with sufficient information, should be as far as we should go as a society; otherwise we really will go down the George Orwell 1984 road. If it subsequently transpires that a victim was suffering some form of mental trauma that caused them to mistakenly take the substance; or there is evidence that they was persuaded to do so by another, that will not change the underlying issues regarding to ban or not - simply the issues under discussion. Frank Hallett

Posted By FAH Not quite in the same league, but! I went to buy some Capsicum Cream this morning - our previous supply had run out. For some obscure reason this excellent anti-inflammatory externally applied cream is now prescription. The pharmacist had no idea why. Anyone know of a legit source that doesn't require me to go through the tedious & frequently unsuccessful route of trying to get my doctor to provide a prescription? Frank Hallett

Posted By martinw Sometimes abuse is illegal. It is a criminal offence to sell solvents to a child or young person if the seller knows the product will be abused. Also, it is a criminal offence for a seller to sell cigarette lighters to anyone under 18, regardless of the circumstances. It's not against the law to sniff solvents or other volatile substances such as aerosols, hairspray or nail varnish, unless you do it in a public place. If you sniff glue or other volatile substances in a public place, you can be arrested and charged with breach of the peace. Not sure that capsicum cream comes into this though!