Posted By MLarry What is a stay put policy (in the event of a fire) and how would this work in a sheltered accommodation setting? What are the disadvantages and advantages? Would the same policy be applicable to other residential settings that the company operate? Any input would be gratefully welcomed. Thanks Mike

Posted By D H Agree to a certain extent SFB - But this all depends on the competency of the assessor and his ability to communicate his findings and recommendation to all involved - too many variables in my opinion. Get out and stay out if practicable Dave

Posted By martinw MLarry I am sure you know already but it does depend on the situation you are looking at - how ambulatory the persons are in the residential care, how much help they might need; the state of the residential accomodation - made of bricks or straw etc; and the levels and training of the staff involved. That, and the date of construction due to whichever building regulations and approved documents refer due to requirements changing. I mean that eg the requirements for fire alarms change due to 2007 amendments in particular circumstances. You also have the difficulty in assessing whether the 2004 Housing Act may apply with the accompanying responsibilities. Find one of the firefighters on this forum and metaphorically buy them a drink. Otherwise you will not get what you need. You do need specialist advice on this: without being presumptive, having seen a previous thread on this, and due to what she did and now does, I would suggest Messy Shaw as a really good place to ask for info. Messy sorry to be your 'pimp' but you and others know vastly more than me on this. MLarry good luck Martin

Posted By D H Martin - thanks for pointing out residential building - I had not taken into account invalids - difficult moving people etc. May I suggest that a call - as well to Messy - the LA and see what they recommend. My concern would be why is MLarry asking the question now? Is this a new build or has there been an incident, or a new safety advisor to the the premises

Posted By MLarry No Dave, it is sheltered accommodation - flats within a building that has around the clock care on site.

Posted By martinw This is interesting in that everyone who goes for a health and safety post has this forum as a pre-interview sounding board. Marvellous. If anyone gets a job better paid than mine and I have helped, am I due at least some CPD points? Or a pint? Good luck with the interview.

Posted By Messy Shaw Stay put policies - This is where it can all go very badly wrong (Remember the Camberwell block of flats?) There are several strategies which can be called 'stay put' 1) Two stage (double knock) alarm systems which raise the alarm to key people and permit a few minutes to search the building before the alarm goes off fully. Any call point evacuation or second detector head will raise the alarm within the search time 2) Phased alarm systems,(often used in taller buildings) which allow - even after the fire is confirmed- occupants to stay before being evacuated in a phased (one area at a time) manner. This allows for very tall buildings to have narrower staircases as the MOE will not be used simultaneously by all 3) Progressive Horizontal Evacuation - used in NHS healthcare establishments where patients are moved to neighbouring zones away from the fire scene. The building is usually built or converted to allow PHE 4) The occasional special system, such as that on some London Underground stations, which is in effect a two stage double knock - as in (1) above, but is silent - even if a call point is actuated. The evacuation is managed by staff (to prevent panic) So far, so good. All of these strategies rely on automatic fire detection. Therefore, whilst no evacuation is taking place, SOMEBODY IS AWARE OF THE FIRE and is actually doing something. But with some flats - usually modern purpose built blocks rather than house conversions- the dreaded stay in place strategy is often employed. This relies on two points. A- Compartmentation and B, Clear escape routes. There is often no automatic fire alarm systems in place (except perhaps to open ventilation systems on staircases). In the event of fire, there are no staff, everyone is sleeping and nobody is doing anything until the fire is noticed by a person - perhaps even outside the building. Clear escape routes are difficult to maintain but easy to monitor (esp during a FRA). The condition and status of the compartment however, is horrendously difficult to assess. In the case of flats, access to compartments is usually from one side only (the communal area). How is the assessor able to determine the standard of compartmentation? How can it be determined that the occupier - especially home owners- have done something to reduce the FR standard? Add to that the issue of residents installing their own fully glazed and/or non FR door, or doors with letterboxes mounted at waist height, or the practice of self-installing second 'port cullis' security doors, which maybe locked shut during hot weather leaving the internal front door wide open for ventilation - there huge potential for it all going severely pear shaped. I have experience of a block of flats in west London where the council installed a BS5839-1 L1 (full fire alarm system with detection in every room, in every flat)to appease residents after an identical neighbouring block burnt down. A full simultaneous evac strategy was employed and then ignored by all residents within days due to numerous (scores) of false & accidental actuations. This proves that stay put policies do have their value and full AFD is pointless - perhaps dangerous if it's going to be ignored. I must be honest, I am always a little apprehensive at accepting residential FRAs in fear that they may come around and, like Camberwell, bite you on the backside later.

Posted By MLarry Messy, a thank you does not do justice to (a) how appreciated your response is and (b)how much of a quality post it is! But hey, THANK YOU! ps and you Martin Messy is there anychance that I could e-mail you to discuss a few of the points? Thanks Mike Larry