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#1 Posted : 25 August 2009 12:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mick at DCAE
I have been asked by our Swimming Pool manager if the 2 grates situated in the deep end of the pool need to be secured. This stems from the death in Thailand a short while ago. She has stated that the grate does move slightly and occasionally needs pushing back into postion.
Is there a legal requirement in this country?

Thanks
Mick
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#2 Posted : 25 August 2009 12:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Swis
is this a H&S question?
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#3 Posted : 25 August 2009 12:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mick at DCAE
Yes, I was after guidance from anyone who has knowledge with this subject. Although we have a swimming pool at our establishment it is not an area I have had many dealings with. I just need to know how/if anyone else has addressed the issue.
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#4 Posted : 25 August 2009 12:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Rose
Mick - not a very helpful first response, was it? Yes of course it is H&S question.

Although I can't think of a specific statutory requirement, I think that the answer to your question is a pretty emphatic 'yes'. While bearing in mind the grills are at the deep end, I would say that any reasonable risk assessment would require that these be secure. The holes should be such that someone shouldn't get their fingers stuck in them (there was a case in Suffolk I believe where this happened), there should be at least 2 outlets to prevent 'total' suction.

We have used a sub aqua club in the past to help with little jobs like this. You do need to make sure that whoever does the job is reasonably competent, but hopefully that shouldn't be rocket science.



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#5 Posted : 25 August 2009 12:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By sogden
Hi Mick

Might be your answer in this Guide.

Managing health and safety in swimming pools (HSG179)
How does it apply to non-standard facilities?
The guidance in HSG179 is aimed primarily at swimming pools, but it also covers paddling pools, segregated areas of rivers, lakes and the sea, and other non-standard facilities. We have prepared this note to clear up any uncertainty over just how the guidance applies to such facilities. We do not want unnecessary precautions to cause people, including children, to miss out on opportunities for fun and healthy exercise.

What does the law say?
Paragraphs 15 - 41 of HSG179 summarise the health and safety legislation with which all pool operators must comply. There are no specific health and safety regulations governing swimming pools (or paddling pools and other non-standard facilities). As far as public safety is concerned, Section 3 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 requires employers to conduct their undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the public is not exposed to risks to health and safety. This general duty is supplemented by the requirement under regulation 3 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 that employers make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks to members of the public to help decide what measures need to be taken. The law does not prescribe what control measures would be reasonably practicable in each and every case. That is a judgment that has to be made by individual operators on the basis of the particular risks, which they are best placed to assess. The overarching duty is to prevent exposure to risk so far as is reasonably practicable. This does not mean operators should incur disproportionate costs in implementing measures that anticipate relatively remote risks.

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#6 Posted : 25 August 2009 13:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Swis
There's a difference between 'architectural design', 'engineering' and 'health and safety'.

Just by doing a level 3 certificate or diploma in health and safety doesn't make you a competent designer..
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#7 Posted : 25 August 2009 13:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Edward H
The guidance from HSE is pretty clear. Have a look at:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/en...tainment/pdf/grilles.pdf

I think the final sentence answers your question.
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#8 Posted : 25 August 2009 13:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Christopher Williams
I will email you some guidance that should help.
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#9 Posted : 25 August 2009 14:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mick at DCAE
Thank you all for your responses. I am going to heed the HSE advice as directed by Edward H in which the last paragraph states "all grills should be secured".

Thanks

Mick
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#10 Posted : 25 August 2009 18:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Rose
Chris/Mick, all good stuff, many thanks. Swis - what are you on about?
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#11 Posted : 25 August 2009 18:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Graham Bullough
For anyone who might be puzzled by Phil Rose’s mention of “total suction”, I understand that this refers to a potentially serious risk at pools which only have one outlet grill. If the suction effect of water being taken through an outlet grill is sufficiently strong, a person swimming underwater near the pool floor can be pulled onto and held against the grill. Horrendous accidents involving this phenomenon have occurred in the past. This led to UK pools with only one outlet being modified. The usual and probably most foolproof modification is the creation of one or possibly more additional grilled outlets serving the same outlet pipe. However, the HSE document quoted by Edward H above does mention alternative methods. Another possible method, though not mentioned, could be the widening of a single outlet to accommodate a notably wider grill plate. Thus, if the grill plate is partly covered by an adult torso, there would still be a sufficiently uncovered area of plate which allows water to enter and thus avoids a significant suction effect. Does anyone know if this method has been used?

As for the theme of this thread, it makes good sense that grill plates are secured in position. If swimmers are able to dislodge a plate, whether accidentally or deliberately, it seems foreseeable that someone’s arm or leg can be inserted/pulled into the narrowing aperture beneath and then be trapped by the suction effect.
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#12 Posted : 25 August 2009 18:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Rose
Some good stuff here Mick, and Graham has done a good job of elaborating on my comment about suction. Scary stuff. I have to say that if I had a pool with only one outlet I would be inclined to have to do something although not seen any of the methods suggested put into operation. Hopefully single outlet pools are few and far between, although now I have said that I am sure to be proved wrong!
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#13 Posted : 25 August 2009 22:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil
Phil,

You need to be careful using the sub aqua club to do "jobs" for you, as they run the risk of coming under the HSE diving at work regs, and will need to be commercial divers with an approved qualification, in date medical, supervisor, tender dive plan etc etc etc.

Phil

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#14 Posted : 25 August 2009 22:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By Phil Rose
Phil - many thanks for the 'heads up' on that, I'll be honest I never even considered that one. Thanks again
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#15 Posted : 26 August 2009 11:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian Bennett
Is your centre a member of the Institute of Sport and Recreation Management (ISRM)? I'm sure they could clarify any points if there are still any queries.

I have found them most helpful in the past, in fact they are looking to start providing courses in pool management for the H&S industry, I actually went on the pilot which was very informative.
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#16 Posted : 26 August 2009 13:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By gary harrison
hi
just to chip in, we had a death at a pool following a young person removing a grate that was not secured and he was drowned.
risk assessment would identify that these grates need securing, and as previous comments i suggest the ISRM are contacted for guidance on standards.
i am frantically looking for the standard/source but there are also requirments on the flow rates over the drain and the sizes of the holes in the grates to stop little fingers prodding and people being sucked onto the drain.
i will keep looking,
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#17 Posted : 26 August 2009 13:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By gary harrison
found it
Pool Water Treatment Advisory Group (PWTAG) produce a standard "Swimming Pool Water Teatment and Quality Standards" that is very well recognised (ISBN 0 951 7007 6 6) page 65.
it comments on securing grills, gap sizes in grills and velocity rates over the drains.
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#18 Posted : 26 August 2009 17:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Graham Bullough
Just to add to earlier responses about PWTAG and ISRM, followers of this thread may be interested to see a guidance note (Oct 2001) by those bodies at

http://www.pwtag.org/p_release4.html

which argues against changing grates, alias grill covers, from ones with 8mm apertures to ones with 4mm because the smaller apertures will increase suction and therefore the risk. The note adds that HSE was consulted during its preparation. It also gives details about the publication "Swimming Pool Water treatment and quality standards"

I happened to find the guidance note while having a dig around on the internet for information about "pool entrapment". There are plenty of websites with information, including some with details of deaths and serious injuries (especially to children) in the USA which led to specific federal law (apparently named after a young victim) about pool water outlets.

Another point: Though public and commercial pools in the UK and USA will probably have safe water outlets, it's pertinent to note that pools elsewhere in the world may not be designed and operated to the same standards. Therefore, forum users, plus their families and friends, will be wise to take care when using pools while on holiday.
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