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Posted By Martin Thorpe
I've got a query re: secondments. Our staff occassionally get seconded to a client organisation where they work under the clients safety management system. I understand that a contract letter is agreed whereby the client agrees to take legal responsibility for the safety of the individual.
I'm not sure that this is sufficient as I believe that we should be making reasonable checks that our staff are being taken care of. e.g. requesting a copy of the risk assessment, DSE assessment etc. I've considered drafting a 'Secondment Checklist'. I'd be grateful to hear from anyone who has used a similar document.
Or am I going over the top with this?
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Posted By Martin Thorpe
over a 100 people have viewed this and nobody has an opinion? Come on guys...
Do you think these checks need to be carried out or not?
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Posted By Heather Collins
It's going to depend on what the contract letter says Martin. Who is the employer during the secondment - you or the client? Who pays the wages and retains responsibility for NI and so on?
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Posted By Phil Rose
OK Martin, I shall dip my toe in the water. I suppose it depends on the nature of the work that the person is being seconded to, and therefore the level of risk as to how far I personally would go. I would also consider the level of control over the work. If you retain control over the work then I suggest you have a greater responsibility, but if the employer to which the worker has been seconded has the bulk of the control then I suggest they have the bulk of the responsibility. If the work is administrative work that is essentially office based then I wouldn't get to excited. Yes you could ask for RA's but in my experience a visit to the actual environment would give you a better picture as to what is actually going on.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Heather got in before me. While someone may be an employee for the purposes of Income tax and NI, on a practical and pragmatic level, I think the determining factor for deciding on who is responsible for the health and safety of the individual would be far better served by looking at who has control over their work activities in much the same way as agency workers.
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Posted By Martin Thorpe
Strange one. In a full secondment the client has full control (e.g. of the workplace and the work activity) yet we still pay the wages, NI etc.
It's something that a couple of 18001 external auditors have picked up on that we should be making these checks.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Martin - I think that what you have described is almost invariably the usual arrangement. I think that the issue of 'control' is the key factor. I have often found that our auditors, both internal and external do get hung up on some issues that are always necessarily of significant risk but they then ,miss things that are. Spooky but true. Currently our external auditor is making a mountain out of a molehill about having a fire extinguisher sign next to very fire extinguisher, but overlooked a blocked fire escape and very poor housekeeping issues. Such is life!
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Posted By Martin Thorpe
Don't get me started on external auditors!!!!
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Posted By Phil Rose
Love 'em! No seriously they do of course have a part to play but in my experience at least they aren't always as experienced in what they are auditing as they could be and they seem to work to a 'tick sheet' system which they don't always seem to be able to look outside of and therefore miss some pretty obvious 'howlers'. I can't help but feel that their audits are merely about compliance and don't actually drill down to some of the 'nitty gritty' issues and what is actually happening.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Martin
Not having read every post I will still offer an opinion. First, you cannot negate your legal duty by a disclaimer. As a rule the 'employer' is the person contracted to pay the wages of the employee and therefore HSWA s2 still applies. Finally, in the event of an accident or incident, it is quite possible that there would be a shared liability.
Ray
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Posted By Phil Rose
The 'status' of the employer for H&S purposes is not always 'clear cut' and not always related to who pays the PAYE/NI contributions - you may want to have a read of this http://www.personneltoda...rs-where-are-we-now.html and review some of the cases, not all of which are H&S related, but they do talk about the employment status and the employee/employer relationship of agency employees. Certainly a little food for thought over lunchtime :-)
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Posted By Stuff4blokes
Martin, consider the fictional scenario of an employee sent to do work on an industrial site where little or no H&S arrangements are in place. Following the accident everyone is blessed with 20/20 hindsight and starts to ask why nobody thought to make any enquiries as to the safety of the site. You can guess the rest...
It seems to me that a few enquiries could be made, the depth of enquiry depending on the nature of the work and environment. Simple office exposures needing less time to complete than a farm, quarry or steel works.
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Posted By GT
Martin,
Not an authority on the subject but, maybe Heather has a point. Should we be concerned that we are placing workers with a client and haven't conducted a RA of the work environment?
Does your contract ( again back to Heathers point) allow you access to the work area prior to and during the work period?
If I was in your position and I would have insisted on ROA and would also conduct periodical visits to check on their welfare. I don't think the court would allow me to abdicate my/company responsibilities should anything untoward happening.
regards
GT
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Posted By Martin Thorpe
Some interesting (and conflicting) points of view from everybody.
Perhaps I should add that the staff are working in offices and so should be of low risk. However, I still believe there would be a benefit in asking for a copy of a DSE assessment so that we can be assured that when they return to us, they're not suffering from a problem created by working with a poorly set-up workstation.
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