Posted By RMN If sub-contractors are working in an individual council owned dwelling, is there a requirement for a fire risk assessment? I think there is because it is a place of work. All views greatly appreciated.

Posted By GB Dear RMN I would suggest that fire safety on a construction site is covered by the MHSWR, CDM2007 and the RRO - all requiring a risk based approach. Fire safety in domestic properties is covered by the Housing Act 2004 requiring certain houses in multiple occupation (HMOs) having to be licensed by the local authority. In addition, the Housing Health and Safety Rating System (HHSRS) applies to all rented property. This means local authorities have to carry out HHSRS inspections, which in essence is a risk assessment. Property owners and landlords are required to carry out remedial work to deal with any fire hazards identified. CDM2007 requires that a client (the council) are required to provide pre-construction information (either directly or via a CDMC) to contractors which would include any specific fire safety hazards and arrangements. The contractor would then be obliged to consider this (as well as his own works) prior to starting on site. Taking this into account, I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that a risk assessment is not required? Hope this helps? Regards Gary

Posted By RMN Dear Gary, Thanks for your response. Would it be reasonable to say that once the dwelling has become a place of work it should be considered to be non domestic?

Posted By GB Dear RMN It is my understanding that when a contractor starts work on any premises (with very few exemptions) it becomes a place of work - as is the case with a council property as they are a commercial client. Dear CoSHH Assessor Your response did not provide much by way of assistance - please could you clarify which council owned properties would not require HHSRS assessments so that RMN can be better informed? Regards Gary

Posted By John Packer Looking at it from a worst case scenario; Council sends in sub-contractor to work in property which it leases out. Sub-contractor carries out works and in the process of which causes a fire. Case is considered for prosecution. And what do you think the first thing the prosecuting body is going to ask for?

Posted By Crim This depends on whether the "dwelling house" is occupied as a dwelling or not? If not then it will require a fire risk assessment under HSG168 fire safety in construction work. This is not the same as FSRRO. If still occupied as a dwelling i.e. people living in the property then I would expect at the very least a risk assessment by the contractor and this to include fire risk.

Posted By Richard Hammer FSO does not fall under this scenario. However CDM Regs Part 4, Management H&S Regs (Regulation 3) and Health & Safety At Work Act 1974 section 2 does fall under. So appropriate RAMS should be in place prior to works commencing where obviously fire will be looked at as part of the whole process. In regards to HHSRS. Not all properties are subject to this assessment, it is risk based. Obviously all licensed HMO's are, there are also duties on fire safety on the Management of HMO's (The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation (England) Regulations 2006)which has legislation but it is mainly spot checks, complaints by tenants on private landlords which instigate HHSRS on other properties. But check this out Council owned properties fall outside of these checks (cannot regulate themselves) and the only checks they have is the fire authority who are only concerned about the common areas. There is a protocol document for councils and fire authorities to work together which is in detail in the LACORS guide.

Posted By Coshh Assessor I'm sorry my point wasn't clear, it was that although local authorities are obliged to carry out HHSRS assessments on some properties in some circumstances, you can't assume that a HHSRS assessment will have been done (or should have been done) for every rented property there is. So you can't rely on this as part of a risk assessment for works in properties.

Posted By Coshh Assessor Well you are not wrong there, f5refresh!

Posted By f5refresh Yeah nice one Richard...I was merely stating a fact to which I think I answered the original posters question very concisely....do you agree or do you just want another wasteful debate? Risk assessment = legal obligation Well while your doing that just include fire hazards - no need to have a seperate assessment. It's not rocket science!! Is it me or is it only the health and safety profession that try to over complicate things...maybe thats a fascade people hide behind to make themselves feel important!