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Posted By SHeadley
What is the generally accepted minimum qualification for a Health and Safety manager, specifically when managing £0.5 billion or more construction projects? Would it be acceptable for the manager to have little or no OHS qualifications / experience in heavy construction?
How does the client / Pc/ and CDMC stand in a situation like this?
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Posted By Blue
Competence is required. But not the best time to ask questions when the footy is about to start! Bets of luck
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Its only Europa games for heavens sake! typical Blue. But we all know the answer to the question anyway.
I feel the question should be rephrased to 'how do you approach / deal with a person in a construction H&S role when it is perceived they are not competent for that role?'
A tricky question when you are not in the client position, but if you are the CDM-c or have the ear of the CDM-c, you should communicate the needs of Acop (91).
It states that Clients are responsible for appointing competent and adequately resourced
designers and contractors (including principal contractors). A competent CDM
co-ordinator will have the knowledge and expertise to assist clients with these
assessments.
So it appears this may have been missed on your scheme, so question if this has been undertaken, but be careful to judge just because you have a general feeling, this person may have skills you don't know about.
If this individual falls short via this process, recommend they are supported with individuals with other skill sets to meet the needs of the scheme.
It should not be a witch hunt, but turning a blind eye is not acceptable for anyone in any of the roles you mention.
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Posted By Crim
I think the operative words here are managing the construction project?
Management skills will be required also interpersonal communication skills.
That's without any H&S qualifications for a start.
Experience of construction work would not be essential but certainly diploma level or NVQ h&s would be a minimum.
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Rubbish Crim, Experience of construction would be very essential.
Some form of H&S training equally so. Maybe a Construction Cert, Maybe 5 day CITB construction safety course, maybe a degree. Its all a blend of experience and qualifications.
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Posted By Crim
Rubbish Paul!
I had no experience of construction when I became H&S Manager of a shopfitting company.
I was a fire officer, worked in the Court cells, worked for a bus company and then had a year as a H&S consultant.
I learned on my feet, did a couple of NVQ's in H&S and used my management skills to good effect.
My lack of experience also meant I had no bad habits to take with me!
I have never had a problem (fingers crossed) and always get work by recommendation. I have enough work to allow me to drop clients that do not listen to my guidance.
I have a good knowledge of CDM and appear to be well respected by a number of CDM-C's who actually come to me for advice and guidance.
No need for past experience in construction but I agree it could be helpful.
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Posted By Phil Rose
OK, I'm bored so will play devils advocate. There are 2 questions
1. what QUALIFICATION required
2. is no quals/experience ACCEPTABLE
Blue has already mentioned the 'c' word. (by the way what's the score Blue?)
With the best will in the world, I would have thought it pretty irresponsible to say the least to appoint a H&S Manager with no H&S quals or experience - wouldn't it be rather difficult to demonstrate the 'c' word?
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Crim sorry,
But two words come to mind,
Chancing AND lucky.
No one without construction experience and a decent level of H&S qualification should be leading a plus 500m scheme.
I challenge any professional to argue otherwise.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Gotta agree with you Paul, it would be a braver man than me to appoint a H&S Manager with no relevant quals or experience to manage the H&S on a £1/2 B project. I can see the HSE inspector rubbing his hands now!
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Posted By justgossip
You need a person who can DO IT. Qualifications are absolutely useless at identifying if a person can deliver on site safety.
You are looking for a person who has the safety required knowledge. Its not rocket science.
Has the ability to get people working to the safe systems of work and safe processes.
I came into construction safety from logistics safety.Hence no experience of construction. Our company is picking up work because we stand out as a safe company.
So look for a CAN DO person, then look for some knowledge of safety dark arts.
garry
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Garry, totally agree with the interpersonal skills you cite, but for a 500m construction project you need more than a person with a gut feeling of what is right, you need sound knowledge and experience.
This is a life safety role, and like all other industries, they should be trained and experienced. You would appoint someone as a train driver because they know how to work their hornby train-set, neither should you appoint someone on a scheme of this size because they know a bit of safety and can get on with the lads.
This is high risk, 500m worth of hazardous activity.
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Posted By David Gault
To be literal about the question the responses above are correct in that competence is required but no formal H&S qualification.
In answer to what you actually asked regarding generally accepted standard you should be looking for someone with GradIOSH as a minimum and substantial construction experience as mentioned above.
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Posted By Paul Duell
I've got NEBOSH Dip and working towards CMIOSH - and the most valuable thing the Dip programme taught me was that there's a lot of stuff out there I don't know!
For example, my knowledge of the COMAH regs is very sketchy, especially two years after Dip and not having had to use it. But at least I know they exist, and where to find out more if I'm ever in the situation that they're relevant to me.
My point is that yes, a lot of the practical side of H&S ISN'T rocket science. But you also need to know what you don't know so you can fill in the gaps.
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Posted By HLS After speaking with many other professional in our line of work and reading all the thought provoking comments, combined with the many detailed profile articles in SHP of Safety professionals, the consensus seems to be essential items required are qualifications and experience. As in the definition of competence, (Knowledge skills experience training and attitude) if one attribute is missing, competence can’t be assumed or proved. Following an incident, the ensuing investigation by the HSE would leave all parties involved exposed including the manager. As a safety manager, the role also requires advisor duties to be included. Recent cases have highlighted, and most competent professionals will know when they are out of their depth, and be competent enough to know when their knowledge level has been met. Case of safety prof carrying out risk assessments for wood working shop even though they had never been at the location or had anything to do with wood working machinery in the past. http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...s.article&id=640&sgid=13
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Posted By Brian Horrocks
Where I work, we do lots of high risk safety work - but very few are IOSH/NEBOSH qualified.
Are they incompetent?
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Posted By Phil Rose
I am not sure whether you should look at it in terms of being being incompetent.
The competence issue and the 'definition' is well known.
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Posted By Brian Horrocks
Agree, but many users of this site - seem to think only IOSH/NEBOSH quals make you competent.
Anything else, and you are not competent.
There is so much more to safety management than IOSH.
IOSH is only popular, because it 'won' the commercial game of recognition, amongst a wider audience.
IOSH are no more competent (or should that be incompetent) than lots of other organisations.
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Posted By Derrick Robinson
To be controversial can I suggest we should look at the requirements for CSCS cards since this is a construction related question.
Charted IoSH gets you a PQP card as a senior manager.
Level 4 qualification gets you a manager level card (platinum) and level 3 gets you a supervisor level card (gold)
Therefore the answer to the question "minimum qualification for a H-S Manager", in a construction context, is surely a platinum CSCS card which means NVQ4 or better.
I know that many people will have very negative views of the CSCS scheme, which to some degree I share, but it is the stated policy of most (if not all) of our largest construction companies that they follow this route so perhaps this guides us to the answer.
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Posted By A Campbell
Derrick
(trying not to be negative on a Friday)
What does the platinum CSCS card actually qualify a H&S officer, manager etc to do?
Surely the qualifications, e.g. NVQ L4, Degree, Diploma etc are the qualifications employers are seeking and not just a card that from experience may not be looked at or acts as a entry card?
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Posted By Edward Shyer
As many have stated competence appears to be they key issue.Does a competent manager have to posses H&S qualifications? in my opinion no. We are discussing whether a H &S manager should be qualified in health and safety to manage a £500m contract or not.
As I understand there is nowhere within the management of health and safety regs (no doubt someone will be quick off the mark to discredit this or be obtuse in a reply) that state that managers should be qualified. It does however state that managers should have competent assistance to assist managers to carry out their H &S duties.
regards
Ted
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Posted By Derrick Robinson
I do agree, it is the qualifications behind the card which are important.
However, if CSCS works as it is supposed to, and I accept it often does not, it is something more than just an entry card, it is supposed to define the individuals competence for the stated role, as indicated by the second C in the name.
Whilst I am sure there will be some H and S Manager cards held by industry accreditation by people (probably very competent people) who do not hold formal qualifications, the fact remains that to get a CSCS you now have to be qualified to a level appropriate to the grade of card you apply for.
Therefore my point is that the qualification requirement for the relevant CSCS card is a good indicator to the answer to the question about minimum quals for a H and S manager in construction.
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Because of these debates, its clear why the industry needs clear direction, and why the HSE are looking to regulate those who undertake Health and Safety as a professional role.
I feel there is no harm with everybody in H&S holding a health and safety qualification, whereas there is an element of risk if everybody doesn't.
If you want to practice safety, you should have X qualification in the same way that if you want to drive you have training to gain a licence.
This method doesn't necessary make you a good H&S professional or a good driver, it does allow for a quick assessment that you have a decent understanding of what you should be doing.
I hear the argument all the time that qualifications point to nothing, unsurprising, its usually from those who have not bothered to make the effort to gain any.
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Posted By paulw71
ok
2 guys come to you for a job
1 has the construction cert and 20 years experience.
the other has diploma and 2 years experience.
who would you give the job to ?
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Posted By Edward Shyer
The most suitable candidate but not just based on qualifications.
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Posted By A Campbell
The person who can demonstrate they have had previous H&S management experience on similar large scale construction projects?
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Posted By Lee Mac
SHeadley
To put it simply construction is governed by CDM Regs & ACoPs and these both home in on competency as one of the key focus areas for all parties.
Look at it like this if a serious accident occurs and the HSE come to investigate and find the H&S Manager doesn't have suitable and sufficient competency, this will be frowned upon and possible action may follow.
If competencies aren't confirmed from the outset for such a project, then the PC is playing with fire.
Lee
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Posted By Phil Rose
As I and others have said, the issue here is competency, something that has been discussed time and again on this forum and elsewhere.
And bearing in mind my previous post, I may be about to shoot myself in the foot slightly; is competency or more accurately alleged lack of competency, itself likely to be 'actionable'?
Be interesting to hear what people think?
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Posted By D H
Employers will also choose the one who expects the lowest salary!
Some will tick the box just by having someone in place!
Dave
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Posted By C. Wright
Qualifications are the means to provide evidence that the person has spent the time and effort to learn the required information to successfully pass an exam, hopefully they have learned well enough to retain the information for a little longer than the couple of hours sat in the exam room. In a job which has traditionally been one of the worst for death and serious accidents, experience counts for as much as the qualifications. I have nearly 30 years on site as a carpenter and in recent years of being self employed being responsible for the safety and welfare of the gang I take on site. I have recently passed NEBOSH construction cert I believe I could do the H$S managers job but only because I have the years on site, spent the time and effort to study and have a real concern for getting the job done on time and in budget but not at the risk of health or injury
So IMO the person for the job should have qualified in the correct subject and have a reasonable understanding of who is likely to do what from time spent on site
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