Posted By David Morgan
Current work premises is a two storey building consisting of several offices. On the second floor a number of the office doors are fitted with self closing hinges. All the offices lead into a corridor (not a working area,no equipment in the corridor). Invariably the doors are wedged open. Having completed a RA of the area I can see no reason why these hinges can not be removed. Please advise if there is any reason why I can not remove these hinges. Additionally the doors are not fitted with a glass panel.

Posted By D. Hilton
Not withstanding the above, removal of the self closing devices will only result a situation where it is not necessary to wedge the doors open.

Posted By Ken Taylor
Glass vision panels only tended to be required for doors serving inner rooms. The doors in question sound like fire-resisting self-closing doors designed to protect the means of escape. Inspecting fire officers have been known to serve notices upon employers who allow fire doors to be wedged open. The fire risk assessment (carried out by a competent person) should consider the current arrangements in the light of published guidance for the type of premises. You may be able to get some guidance from the local fire officer. It has been known for additional automatic fire detection in each room and corridor to be accepted where doors are regularly wedged but the local situation (including occupancy and travel distances) will need to be taken into account in considering that option.

Posted By Ken Taylor
Nice to hear from you again Messy.

I didn't say that they are "only for inner rooms" (despite your inverted commas). I said that "glass vision panels only tended to be required for doors serving inner rooms" - a reference to earlier fire certificates and guidance documents. As a health and safety practitioner I am well aware of the value of vision panels in other doors and have frequently asked for their installation. As to whether they would be useful in David's case it would be a matter for further risk assessment and any addition to existing fire doors would need to preserve their integrity and fire resistance.

My main concern here is, of course, the fire risk to the means of escape.

Posted By shaun mckeever
David, as mentioned earlier, there is insufficient information to give a reasonable answer. If the corridor is meant to be a fire protected corridor then you would expect the doors leading onto it to be fitted with self-closing devices. If the travel distances and directions of escape are sufficient then there may be no need for self-closing devices to be fitted.

If you could provide a bit more info it would help.

Posted By Crim
Frank, that's exactly what I said on Tuesday - two days ago!

Posted By John Quinn Safety
Hi David,

just to add, we have resolved a similar problem in one of our buildings using a door guard device which holds the door open but releases it when the fire alarm sounds. These are battery operated devices and as such fail to safe. They are not cheap but it was more cost effective for us than hard wiring an electromagnetic relase system into our fire alarm.

I've put a couple of sites below where you can get details and prices.

http://www.doorguard.net

http://www.firesafe.co.u...Details1.asp?pid=DORGARD

Regards, John

Posted By mattbr
Not sure if anyone is following this discussion anymore...

Can anyone point me to the relevant piece of legislation that specifically states the fire doors cannot be propped open.

I fully understand this in relation to Fire Extinguishers as this would be part of RR(FS)O and MHSWR in terms of interfering with items re Health and Safety and non-automatic fire fighting/detection equipment.

However, where does it say that you will be fined/given an enforcement notice if you prop doors open with say a wedge.

I am of the opinion (mis-informed maybe) that if an office is in full time occupation then it is permissible. When the last person leaves then (for any period of time) it is their responsibility to remove door stay.

Posted By mattbr
Not sure if anyone is following this discussion anymore...

Can anyone point me to the relevant piece of legislation that specifically states the fire doors cannot be propped open.

I fully understand this in relation to Fire Extinguishers as this would be part of RR(FS)O and MHSWR in terms of interfering with items re Health and Safety and non-automatic fire fighting/detection equipment.

However, where does it say that you will be fined/given an enforcement notice if you prop doors open with say a wedge.

I am of the opinion (mis-informed maybe) that if an office is in full time occupation then it is permissible. When the last person leaves then (for any period of time) it is their responsibility to remove door stay.

Comments?

Posted By Messy Shaw
Matt. Listen carefully as I am only going to say this once (and not three times!!)

Article 14 of the RR(FS)O 2205 covers 'Emergency routes and exits'

Article 14(2) and 14(2)(b) say:.......

(2) The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—


(b) in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;



So - to put it another way:... If a fire door has been fitted to safeguard the means of escape (ie ensure that MOE will be available in the event of fire) it must be kept closed/locked or clear so that it will work effectively when required.

As they are so damn expensive, it is rarely the case that fire doors have be fitted unless some code requires them to be there for fire safety reasons.

It may be reasonable to have a management system in place - as you describe- for the last person out to close the door. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, the fire service (and courts) would be reluctant to accept this system unless you had a very good rationale as to why you had adopted this system and you could prove it would work every time.

In a former life I have audited many buildings who have had doors wedged or tied. Managers would be quick to tell me that it was very hot in the room so a 'last man out' system was in place. I tended to ignore it and carry on with the inspection. At some point, I would ask the persons in the room to leave and tell me what they knew about the extinguishers in the corridor or where the nearest MCP was. On every occasion I tried this, the wedged door was left open, even when the 'last man' had left.

This system rarely works so is rarely accepted.

Posted By mattbr
OK logged back in this morning to see whether there was an any update and saw three postings from me.
Sorry about that, I was having a problem with Firefox's cache losing the content of my post and when I tried reloading the page wasn't aware that it posted each time.

Crim was your response about refusal to listen to posts directed at me?
I'm assuming not seeing as this was the first post (albeit three times) I have made on the subject. If it was I am sorry if I have offended you in some way.

What I was asking was some clarification about where it is explicitly stated that holding a fire door open with anything would end up with a fine/notice etc.

Messy,
Thanks for the points noted.

M.