Posted By Luke. If you work in an industry such as ground works where there is a possibility of discovering asbestos which has been buried.. Do all staff involved need AA training, or can a few on site be trained i.e. site supervisor and a couple of others (just in case of holiday, sick etc..)? The reason i ask is that reg 10 (1) states that "Every employer shall ensure that adequate information, instruction and training is given to those of his employees—" And then 10 (a) states "who are or who are liable to be exposed to asbestos, **or who supervise such employees**" Clarification required please. Thanks

Posted By Kieran J Duignan While the potential harm is significant, Luke, the principle of balance and proportionality applies rather than perfectionism (just as it would in relation to a comparable risk, such as radiation). In practice, designing and implementaing a safe system of work including Recognised Local expert, tiered training, supervision and regular, systematic record keeping provides a workable framework of hazard control.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Luke The real question is just how foreseeable the eventuality you outlined really is in practice. If you are constantly working in brown field developments then the answer is likely to be "yes" it is forseeable. In this case all operatives need a basic awareness unless you are going to have a trained person in every gang at all times! The training time is not that excessive though and is generally only 0.5 day per person. If there are substantial amounts of asbestos found then you are going to need to open discussions with a range of enforcement authorities before you can do much in any case and they will set out parameters for removal, sealing, work methods, operative training requirements in such cases. Only recently I have had a situation where a licensed contractor was on site during ALL excavation into the contaminated ground because the materials included insulation, cloth, paper, AIB and cementitious sheet. Always ensure some form of asbestos survey/investigation has been done for a brownfield site. You are then in a position to Plan which is a primary duty under CAR 2006 Bob

Posted By Kieran J Duignan I've just come across a summary checklist, 'Managing my Asbestos' on the HSE website. It may be useful for designing trainng at different levels. The URL is: http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/managing/intro.htm

Posted By Robin M Ray, Any chance you could send me that PP Presentation? Sorry to be cheeky! Robin

Posted By Raymond Rapp Dave There are many forms of work that may or may not come into contact with ACMs. They will also differ in level of risk. For all our internal works we have the building surveyed for ACMs before we allow anyone to lift a brush. Therefore I disagree with you post and shouting (capitals), we all have an opinion on this one and the regulations are ambiguous in my opinion. Ray

Posted By Robert K Lewis Dave Steady on old chap:-) There is a foreseeability test to identify the people who need it. Once they have been identified I 100% agree with you the basic training must be done. Like you I despair of the "A TBT is good enough" talk that floats around this issue. There is definitely no question of only doing it if it is RP to do so. Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Paul I think you may have said the very thing Dave and I are concerned about. The test is whether operatives will foreseeably encounter ACMs - if so then training must be given. The decision has nothing at all to do with the level of risk. Once it is recognised that they may foreseeably encounter ACM then the syllabus for the training set out in regulation 10 requirements must be given. I totally agree though that all people entering construction at any level should receive the basic training but unfortunately it will not happen. Even major trainers of trades people seem reluctant to include it in their syllabus. I offered to provide the training within the context of the mandatory personal development hours under train2gain etc but received a blank look. I certainly do not think there is more than the thickness of a cigarette paper between Dave's views and my own on this topic. We both feel passionately that it should and must be given and that it be done properly. There are far too many half hearted measures being used and/or sold. Bob

Posted By Kieran J Duignan Luke You write: i want to enforce, i can quote legislation, consequences (moral and legal) etc until i am blue in the face. But if the wallet doesn't open, then I'll keep on looking like a smurf. A smart smurf gathers survey data and use them as a tool for motivating and educating, at middle and senior levels. What's so daunting about being a smart smurf?

Posted By Robert K Lewis DW And just to add - Can anyone be confident that they will only ever undertake greenfield and new build, or even only ever maintain post 2000 building? Particularly as a contractor, the situation will be rare. We know encounters will almost certainly happen and for most construction operatives the training is a must. The only exceptions are likely to be in-house maintenance staff working only in new premises. Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Ray Going back to your earlier post I would have to say that having a survey of any pre 2000 premise does not guarantee that asbestos will not be encountered. The balance is that asbestos must be presumed to be present unless you have clear evidence that it is not. Only a detailed type 3 can approach this and even then the answer is not necessarily 100% certain until the work is fully underway. How many people will do a type 3 prior to some plumbing repairs? The HSE stance is one of fail to safe, the presumption is that ACMs are present. Bob

Posted By Dave Wilson Ray Its nothing to do with 'accidental contact' there are plumbers / chippies / IT people and the janitor in the local primary school out there today who will be cutting, drilling, bashing and removing this stuff and will not have a scooby they are doing it.

Posted By Adrian Watson Dear All, My starting position is, like Dave, as persons working in the building trades are liable to come into contact with asbestos they must be given asbestos training; the only ones who do not need mandatory training are maintenance workers solely working in only one premise that does not contain asbestos. Managers, supervisors and workers all need a core knowledge of what asbestos is, what are its health effects, how to identify and work safely around or with it, and also what to do if it is found, disturbed or damaged. Supervisors also need to know how to supervise properly and what to in the event of an incident. Managers need to know the above and how to plan and control works, plus the legal aspects of what is and it not allowable. Regards Adrian

Posted By Robert K Lewis Adrian I am reeferring back to the HSE decision regarding pre-2000 buildings. You must prove asbestos is not present in the structure or make the presumption that it is. You are correctly referring to the position withn regard to the finding of unidentified materials which is not where I was at. Bob