I work for an electrical contractor whose activities often involve repairing supply faults in private housing. In many circumstances the electricity meter is in the cellar.

Work is often carried out by one or two operatives and tasks can last for up to and around 90 minutes. There are currently no monitors or other CS equipment provided as the subject has not been approached before.

My primary query is Confined Space or not??

We may talk of the legislative definition and requirements for assessment, but I'm looking for practical controls (RA included) to assist the operatives (some of which are trained and further training may be planned) who will more than often be undertaking extremely low risk CS activities.

I am unable to rely solely on operative discretion and would like managerial involvement to establish information, instruction etc.

Has anyone had experience or have any salient points to discuss?

A confined space, as defined in law, is a place where there might be an irrespirable atmosphere. In theory this can be any enclosed space above or below ground, but I've not heard of any incidence of homeowners being overcome in their own cellars, and on that basis and that of having ventured into a number, I would not regard these as being "confined spaces" just because they are below ground. It may well be that conditions in a cellar are congested and possibly even unsafe to work in as a result of what's there, but this is a separate issue.

Of course this might change if you had reason to believe the cellar might contain a dangerous atmosphere - perhaps if you were engaged in flood clearance for example, or there was a smell of gas. most cellars contain a coal chute which provides some ventilation anyway.

I guess the practical advice is to proceed with care but not to automatically assume that any cellar is a confined space.

Forgive my ignorance on this because I've never (knowingly) been in a house with a cellar. Are all cellars accessed by permenent staircases? or are some accessed by ladders?

I would imagine if it were accessed by a ladder then it may be considered a confined space.

Outside of the box and at the other extreme of the building. Do attics qualify as confined spaces and do contractors consider this when working in them?

Ok - lets start with "My primary query is Confined Space or not??"

Yes of course it COULD depending on the circumstances and the same can be said for an attic. It depends on a number of factors that are discussed within the ACoP. Arguably, a cellar or any other space for that matter, could be a confined space one day but the same space or cellar may not be the next, again depending on the circumstances.

As has been pointed out, the atmosphere isn't the onky factor that should be taken into account, and I DO think that the means of access, or more importantly egress may well be relevant (I am pretty sure this is a factor 'discussed in the ACoP).

I aren't sure if the domestic/non domestic argument is relevant. If someone is accessing the space as part of their WORk then I would have thought that the domestic/non domestic 'status' is pretty irrelevant; isn't it?

A confined space is defined as 'any space... [in] which by virtue of its enclosed nature... ' 'there arises a reasonably foreseeable specified risk'. Specified risks are (to paraphrase): fire or explosion; unconsciousness or asphyxiation because of gas, fume or vapour; unconsciousness because of an increase in body temperature ; drowning from an increase in the level of liquid, or entrapment or suffocation in a free flowing solid, such as flour or play-dough. A cellar is not ordinarlily a confined space; the definition could conceivably apply e.g in times of flooding; or to a fitter investigating a gas leak, or in a house occupied by a play-dough obsessive.

There would need to be some reasonable precautions against the usual hazards arising from the work being carried out, or against being locked in (more of an inconvenience that a serious hazard), and some simple arrangements for communication, so a standard RA would be quite enough,

John

Hi SoS,

Seems fairly clear to me; except under exceptional and clearly defined circumstances (which haven't been mentioned by the OP as applying), a domestic cellar is not a confined space as defined in law,

John

Maybe more a "restricted" space rather than a confined space.

I would ask the question - could I get an injured worker out of there quickly. If the answer is no - because there is hardly room to stand up, then a restricted space. If no because people have to crawl on all fours then a confined space. Down to each persons perception but I would certainly consider the lone working suggestion.

David

I have been mulling this one over (sad I know). I have been doing this job for a good few years and have been dealing with confined spaces for around 20 years or so including entry into aircraft fuel tanks, and confined spaces associated with sewage works.

Now, before we go any further, can I say that I would think that it is unlikely that such a cellar would be a confined space BUT with the information that has been placed in front of me (and everyone else here) so far, there is NO way that I could say with any great conviction whether the space referred to either is or isn't a confined space and I would not do so. I am surprised that anyone else here has been able to reach any definite conclusion either way. Surely the only RESPONSIBLE answer to give 'Ear Defender' is that the space COULD be a confined space if the 'conditions' described in the definition provided within the regs/ACoP are met?

And at the risk of repeating myself, surely the 'privately owned' or 'domestic' argument is spurious at best.

Just before I go though, could I provide something for us all to think about. The cellar in question, houses a gas boiler that runs on LPG. The boiler was installed some years ago by someone that was not Corgi registered or otherwise a competent gas installer, and the boiler hasn't been serviced or inspected since installation. The owner very rarely goes into the cellar but has asked you to go and replace a light that has failed so at least he can see what he is doing when he climbs down the vertical ladder into the cellar. Oh by the way the owner casually mentions that he thought he could smell gas last time he went down there.

Could the cellar be a confined space?

Answers on a postcard!

Phil,

I would treat your case as a confined space; see my first post on this,

John

Thank you for your contributions.

I think the thread perhaps became clouded with the initial question 'Confined Space or not?'. I think apart from the very clear cut cases, apparent 'grey' areas or low risk spaces creates debate and everyone has their own take perhaps based on experience. I should have explained clearly that if it was a Confined Space, what are the practical steps to allow a two man team to assess an area and if anyone had any first hand experience of such situations (Cellar work).

I have requested that all operatives likely to enter cellars in the course of thier work undertake a Confined Space Awareness course which will allow them to understand the subject a little better and assess each job prior to entry. A proforma risk assessment will be produced along with the provision of monitoring equipment. If they consider a cellar or space to be termed 'confined' then sutiable measures will be taken to meet the requirements and control the remaining risk. A team will be CS trained and the job re-allocated to the CS team.

Thanks again.