Rank: Forum user 
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Staff want to put up christmas decorations in an office. The wall where decorations are going up is above a number of desks and the desks can be easily accessed using a step stool that is available in the office.
The desks are robust and can easily take the weight of someone standing on it. I have advised that the decorations can be put up using the desk for access (obviously after ensuring that it is cleared of excess materials).
This advice has been met with 'horror' by some of my other H & S colleagues and other staff but personally I don't see what the issue is - got safe access and probably a safer working platform than a ladder!! (also negates the need to move desks to allow ladder access - no manual handling!!).
Be interested on your views on this.
FH
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I agree with your approach, Fornhelper.
A common sense approach to a simple task. As long as the people putting up the decorations aren't overstretching and risking a tumble there shouldn't be a problem.
In my view you have carried out a dynamic risk assessment and come up with a solution.
Merry Christmas. :-)
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Fornhelper wrote:Staff want to put up christmas decorations in an office. The wall where decorations are going up is above a number of desks and the desks can be easily accessed using a step stool that is available in the office.
The desks are robust and can easily take the weight of someone standing on it. I have advised that the decorations can be put up using the desk for access (obviously after ensuring that it is cleared of excess materials).
This advice has been met with 'horror' by some of my other H & S colleagues and other staff but personally I don't see what the issue is - got safe access and probably a safer working platform than a ladder!! (also negates the need to move desks to allow ladder access - no manual handling!!).
Be interested on your views on this.
FH
Whilst I can see where you are coming from here there are a number of issues which probably need to be considered.
Firstly a desk is not designed as a work platform, is the kick stool high enough to make stepping onto the desk easy, presumably you have nothing to hold on to as you step up.
The surfaces of desk do not take into account slip resistance so depending on footwear or socks may be well be difficult to move on.
Although a desk may appear robust will it take the weight of someone standing on it.
I'm sure there are other issues that others may mention but it is certainly a practice I would not allow in my place of work. I think it just sends out the wrong message.
Goose.
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Just out of interest Goose, how would you deal with this scenario?
FH
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fornhelper
I understand your reasoning but you have to consider what will happen if something goes wrong. Ladders and platforms are designed to get up a height and then work at that height. Desks are not designed to be stood or walked on.
If you are using ladders, platforms and something goes wrong, that is one thing, at least you have the correct kit; if something goes wrong when someone is standing on a desk you have no excuses as you are doing the wrong thing on the wrong kit.
Pull the desks out, one by one and slot a ladder in the gaps? A bit of a longer job maybe, and sorry to be a fly in the ointment. I know that people do this every day somewhere - stand on desks that is - and nothing normally goes wrong, but if you as the H&S bod OK it and it goes wrong, what will you be able to say in your defence?
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Fornhelper
Personally I think you made the right decision. Why make a mountain out of a mole hill ...
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I thought it wasn't worth worrying about either until I remebered that this isn't a solid chunk of beech in front of me but rather 15mm chipboard with a wood effect formica laminate!
And then looked around the office at the wide variety of shapes and sizes of my collueages!
No I'm not so sure it's so easy to dismiss (mute point anyway in my case as we get the facilities dept to do the hanging stuff).
But it sure beats trying to do whilst stood on a swivel chair!
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Martin
If something did go wrong then I would be happy to argue that my advice was perfectly OK as, in my opinion, the risk is low enough to be acceptable. 'Smurf' has got a point - albeit some people in my office on stepladders would be of more concern - but at least the desk would spread the load!!!
OK that's it sorted - only persons under 14 stone are allowed to hang decorations (thats me out!!!) - oh no just been accused of being weightist !!!
Right then move the desks and get the ladders out - "Not our job mate - need to get removal firm in"
OK no decorations to be put up as due to recession we can't afford removal firm / ladders - oh no 'elf n safety' have ruined Christmas again!!!
Happy Christmas everyone (just nippin up on my desk to pin up these cards!!)
FH
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Forget the decorations, and put a small artificial christmas tree on the desk, simples!
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All xmas decorations are banned in our company - nothing to do with H&S but just a bah humbug of an MD :-) With regards to the use of a desk - so long as it flush against the wall and is substantial enough to take someone's weight (withought boughing and cracking in two) then I'm not sure I see the problem (it can't be more hazardous than being up a ladder). Maybe you should rig some netting in case of a fall, possibly make a harness out of tinsel? Oh and I hope you aren't using drawing pins without issuing puncture resistant gloves!
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Should be ok as long as you know the Desk's SWL and get it inspected 6 monthly! ;-)
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Sean
Could you come into my office and tell the females in Finance that!!! I'll stand behind the door and listen for a few Glasgow expletives heading your way !!! :-)
FH
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I wouldn't say standing on top on the desk is unsafe as such, like you have pointed out it might even be safer than moving heavy things around for ladder access, however, I would not encourage such a thing myself purely on the fact that it would send out a wrong health and safety message to workers and give them the impression that they are fine to do similar things. Only my opinion.
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The next step is for staff to stand on desks to change ceiling lamps/bulbs.
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Is the desking canteliver or 4 leg.
Does it have a steel sectional surround under the table top.
What is the thickness of the table top.
What is the table top material.
Remember general low carbon (mild) steel will take around 28 imperial tons per square inch in tensile force prior to fracture.
All materials only ever fail in tension.
It gets complicated to explain why.
The table top is almost certainly a "chipboard" type material bascially the same material used to make structural grade flooring boards (not of such a specific strength as the flooring, however, thicker).
Think of the loading that is regularly put on these desks in the way of paper, computers, books, elbows, how many people sit on desks, is this prevented? Are the desks given a uniformly distributed safe working load like a mezzanine. NO!
Sitting on the edge of a desk will apply more load to the design if the desk is a canteliever design than standing in the middle ever will.
I know it is not good practice, however, no one would query a large PC & monitor a pile of books and a few reams of paper and possibly some machine parts and someone sitting on the edge of the desk... would they? What about a large desk mounted photo copier, how much mass in that?
The structural aspect is a non starter for me from a materials and design concept.
If you're gonna change lamps standing on a desk, I guess the power is on too! At least the desktop is an insulator! ;-))
Paul
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Has anyone considered the possibility of tinsel decorations falling down and entering the openings on the monitor thus creating a fire hazard.
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Is modern tinsel a conuctive material?
Could it cause a short circuit in the monitor, thus a possible energetic event, or, would it merely be a fire hazard from a dry heat perspective?...
LCD/TFT monitors may not have this problem.
But, I guess that is one missed by most! Good one!
What else could the dreaded tinsel contaminate...
Paul.
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fornhelper I'm sure you knew this would open the can of worms, I wonder why you posted in the first place?
If you are a safety person you should not even consider this as a short cut. You should lead by example and always be seen to do the right thing. It's people like you that give us safety professionals a bad name! Shame on you!
Yes it's now Friday and I can rant all I like. ha ha .
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Chris, I would go as far to say that banning this sort of activiy gives us proffesionals a bad name, not letting it happen.
I've let people in my office do this, as long have they have sensible shoes, the desk is clear, they don't overstretrch and there is someone to assist them to steady them and pass things if required then there's nothing wrong with this. Look, I just did a risk assessment!
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Andy, you'll get more than a bad name if anyone falls doing this type of activity!
Let's look at this properly; is the activity at work? Yes.
Has a risk assessment been carried out according to current law? If yes what are the main findings? If no then carry out a risk assessment.
Is it work at height? Yes. Has the required risk assessment been carried out according to WAH? - probably not as the equipment provided for the work at height is not suitable.
End if story!
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Agreed as stated earlier. I see both sides of this - that it seems over the top given the circumstances, but I think that it is the circumstances (the time of year) which are muddling this to some. It does not matter that it is about christmas decorations - it matters that you are using equipment which was not designed to be used for that purpose and that you are not stopping people from putting themselves and others at risk. You also risk damage to equipment which could cause disciplinary responses. I suspect that there is an element in some of the posts relating to a fear of charges of "elf 'n' safety gorn mad - they're stopping us putting decorations up now!"
I agree that the risk is potentially quite low but as a H&S bod you inhibit/advise about other actions and behaviours where the risk is also low in the workplace, as that is part of our role. I still feel that to advise people at work that it is ok to clamber on desks for any reason is not justifiable(except in emergency etc).
Martin
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Chris,
as I said, I have assessed the situation and consider it to be very low risk and that the controls are suitable. Christmas will happen in my office.
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A bit late now, but to avoid all of these issues, to spread a little cheer, and to demonstrate once and for all that H&S staff aren't quite as bad as most people think, why don't YOU put up the decorations?
Do it safely, demonstrating to others as you go how to approach such tasks. And chip in with the Christmas pies too.
It's surely a good way to build relationships (no, not that sort, even if it is Christmas) and lead by example.
And when it's all over, take them down and put them away too, demonstrating too the importance of finishing the job and leaving the workplace clean and tidy.
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Should we highlight the risk of not taking them down within 12 days of Christmas? ;-)
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If you leave them up you have eliminated any future WAH risk and any risk associated with taking them down... :-)
Back to the wine now!
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IanBlenkharn wrote:why don't YOU put up the decorations?
Fully agree!
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I didn't say Christmas should not happen in your office, just do it safely. The last thing anyone wants is to be visiting family and friends in hospital on Christmas day, or assisting someone who has to use crutches and can't drive anywhere himself.
Ian's idea is the best, do it yourself and demonstrate how easy it can be to be safety conscious.
merry Christmas all.
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ahoskins wrote:Back to the wine now!
Certainly agree with that bit! ;-)
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Stand on the floor and stick the decorations low enough for you to reach without all the hassle. (WAH regs do require us to eliminate the need as a first consideration...)
Merry Xmas
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As the HSE have a case study about a teacher falling from a table http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/casestudies/school.htm I would be hesitant to advise using a desk (unless it states load capacity). Geoff Stear has good point can't you have wall decorations low enough to reach. How heigh is your ceiling? is there no one tall enough to reach without climbing up? that what I did
Merry Xmas
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whites wrote:As the HSE have a case study about a teacher falling from a table http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/casestudies/school.htm I would be hesitant to advise using a desk (unless it states load capacity). Geoff Stear has good point can't you have wall decorations low enough to reach. How heigh is your ceiling? is there no one tall enough to reach without climbing up? that what I did
Merry Xmas
I knew there would be one somewhere, thanks "whites" for pointing it out.
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'If something did go wrong then I would be happy to argue that my advice was perfectly OK as, in my opinion, the risk is low enough to be acceptable. '
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/casestudies/school.htm
Maybe you should discuss it with your local HSE inspector now Forn!
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I think this is a "rod for your back".
The next time you have to pull someone for a breach of safety rules you may find them quoting your Christmas decorations and standing on the desk etc.
Any future work at height must be carried out from desks piled high! The worktop must be accessed from a chair or other unsuitable means, etc. etc. Don't forget the bucket of water to stand in while changing light bulbs with the power on! That's still a risk assessment, but just as worthless as the one you have now.
Further, you may not be there next year and whoever takes over will have a heck of a time trying to explain why the safety rules are there to be adhered to. Just wonder what the company safety policy contains about this type of issue?
Has your boss or MD seen this topic? If not why not?
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martinw wrote:'If something did go wrong then I would be happy to argue that my advice was perfectly OK as, in my opinion, the risk is low enough to be acceptable. '
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/casestudies/school.htm
Maybe you should discuss it with your local HSE inspector now Forn!
Martin - Thank you, it appears at least someone out there has got the hang of this sensible approach to risk assessment thing.
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It seems many of us are commenting without having much idea of the layout and size of the desks and its location with respect to the "wall". Also, the HSE case study is explicit that it was "small-table" and on reading further, the cause was over-reaching as the teacher apparently did not move the table.
Sometimes, it may be not be "reasonably practicable" to use a step-ladder if that was the only suitable wall space for hanging decorations!
Yes, one could say, no decorations, but it appears that Martin has assessed the use of the desks and also in my view, they would be safer than any step-stool or step-ladder as long as one did not have to over-reach. We sometimes need innovative, but safe solutions--let us not get bogged down with pedantics.
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Sorry, Martin, I should have mentioned Forn!
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How would any of my esteemed safety colleagues react if you walked on to a site and found a joiner working from a homemade trestle?
How would you feel if you saw an office junior standing on a chair to change a light bulb?
Sensible risk assessment is the way forward but for a safety person to suggest that standing on a piece of work equipment which is not designed as a working platform, is leaving them wide open to condemnation IMHO!
In our office it would take twice as long to clear the desks than it would to pull them out and give safe access!
Maybe you could chose another wall to hang your sparkllies on!!
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I hope the Daily Mail don't read this post - this is exactly the sort of thing that they just love - health and safety folk getting all hot up and bothered about putting up Christmas decorations!!
That's 37 postings (I know 1 of them is mine!) on this subject - compare that with the replies to other queries on the forum for issues which I would say have more significant risks than putting up decorations.
I honestly think that some of you folks need to 'lighten' up a bit (no pun intended with the Christmas decoration thing!) and perhaps concentrate your efforts elsewhere.
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