On the face of it this seems to be fairly straightforward. You have carried out a risk assessment and suggested some pragmatic control measures to ensure the safety of employees. However, are you sure the risk assessment is actually 'suitable and sufficient' and that you could really defend it should something go wrong?

We know that risk assessments are only tested when the worst happens. How would you demonstrate that this was suitable and sufficient when the personal injury claim comes in after an ensuing accident and injury?

Staff are not being told to put the decorations up, it is their choice. What about section 7 duties not to put self or others at risk?

I would either use the facilities department (if there is one) or suggest limited decorations at a height accessible from a suitable platform - but not a chair or desk.

I understand you point of view but to be fair to those who have posted, it's one subject we all share in common and so people are more likely to share their viewpoint.

There are a awful lot of other posts where people refrain from posting (rightly so) because they don't have the experience or knowledge in that particular specialism to add anything of value.

From the HSE - "Actually, HSE has banned very little outright, apart from a very few high-risk exceptions (e.g. asbestos which kills over 5,000 individuals a year). HSE believes that health and safety should be about taking practical steps to manage real risks, not bureaucracy leading to the banning of everyday activities."

As health and safety proffessionals you're role is to assess risk and ensure sensible controls are in place. If you are unable to make an assessment that putting up decorations by standing on a sturdy desk, wearing sensible footwear, without excessive reaching and with someone to assist you represents a low risk and that the controls are adequate then you really are in the wrong job.

Yes there are occasions when you need to stop something and they have been highligted in this discussion. Yes I would stop someone standing on a tressle table, as it would be unstable. Yes I would stop someone standing on a chair as it would be unstable. Yes I would stop someone if they were over-reaching. Yes I would stop someone if they were wearing stilletos. But if they were doing things properly as described above then no, I wouldn't stop them as my proffessional judgement is that the risk is low and the controls are adequate.

As to standing in a bucket of water when changing a lightbulb, why would I stop that? No really, why? When changing a lightbulb here's no greater risk of electricution from standing in a bucket of water than not (unless of course you use DC bulbs and a metal bucket wired to the return feed cable) ! The only additional risk is smelly feet if you don't dry them properly.

Agreed but we also have a duty to not just walk on by if we see or hear something relating to H&S which we think is wrong. I thought that allowing people to use work desks as impromptu WAH platforms was wrong, which is why I posted.
Time well spent if it is heeded, which I suspect it will not be. But if you do allow your staff to use desks to climb on, and there is an accident, and that person or their friends/colleagues are aware that HSE guidance has been put on this forum and that you have read it yet ignored it - I imagine that will be the last H&S role you have with that organisation!

Andy - I hope that you do not think that I was saying that it was OK to use desks as climbing aids - I was quoting Fornhelper and then commenting. Just to clear it up.

Cheers

Martin

If we start managing safety on the basis that we may get claims from ambulance chasing legal firms then we may as well just give up and go home now.

49 replies to a question about xmas decorations...you know its times like these when i wonder if i should get out of the safety business..i dont enjoy it anymore..its now taken to ridulous extremes and is quite frankly laughable sometimes...how did it ever come to this...40 odd safaty professionals discussing if its safe to stand on a desk...jeez

It is the demand of the insurance company that drives the need of the employer, the employee is the last to know, first to be blamed,the last to be paid and the first to go.

Apologies to those who have been upset at this posting - but whilst the subject matter may be 'current' surely the discussion is about how we manage low risk activities.

If someone believes that the activity as described presents a 'significant' risk then that is their shout - I just feel that we tend to concentrate on the severity (and legal consequences) of something going wrong and disregard the other important element of risk assessment the likelihood of it going wrong!!!

FH

FH

the elements of risk may be specifically low but think of the bigger picture. Revisit the HSE link posted above - I reiterate that if you advise someone that this activity is OK despite HSE case study highlighting the individual and organisational costs and ramifications, and it goes wrong, what then? The HSE put that case study on their website because of the prevalence of this activity, probably more frequent at this time of year than at any other time. They did not put it on their site for a laugh - it is obviously because they consider it, in the bigger picture, as cumulatively a contributing factor to falls from height, to lots of injuries and the costs involved, especially when it is so unnecessary. They put it on their site clearly because they think that it is important and that their advice should be heeded. I do not agree that it is insignificant risk(Decimonal we will have to agree to disagree).
It is just an unneccesary risk. Why then take that risk? And we are not just talking about the potential low risk of someone falling, you also have to take into consideration the potential damage resulting from that fall, which is why the HSE made such a point of it. Broken bones, time off work, investigations, insurance, as they said. Overall, again, I do not agree that the risk is insignificant.
Martin

Decimomal

Nothing wrong with 'changing your tune' - I have done it on numerous occasions after listening to colleagues, carrying out assessments with 'frontline' staff, through postings on this forum etc. In fact I believe that one of the strengths of this forum is that it allows us to reach informed decisions based on input from others working in similar circumstances. Obviously there are diverse opinions and seldom full agreement but I always feel more confident when I have a chance to discuss things with a colleague or via the forum.

Martin

If you deem it to be significant risk then so be it - that is your opinion. I appreciate the point you make re the HSE case but this is a different scenario and a similar accident could have occurred by someone overstretching using ladders.

If I give out what I deem to practical safety advice that does not put employees at an unacceptable level of risk and the HSE don't like it then tough - let them challenge it. If I tell employees who have appropriate footwear and a safe means of access on to a robust, flat surface 1m wide by 2m long at a height of less than 1m from the carpeted floor that they cannot stand on their desk and they ask the question 'Why not?' what is my response to be? Its unsafe!!!! You might fall!!! or just go back to the old tried and tested response 'Its health and safety mate - sorry - somebody fell off a desk once'!!

What am I going to do at the New Year - I usually try and do a bit of dancing on top of a table but need to re-consider now :-)

Have a great festive season one and all!!!

FH

Apologies to Safety Smurf.

Agree with you on all points Peter.

Oh dear, is this what we've come to? Questions that arise in my mind:

Are we moving to the point of zero-tolerance of risk? Is this a practical way forward?
What does the law say about risk and and the approach to controlling it?
How important are the widespread perceptions of h&s to practitioners, and what can intelligent practitioners do to encourage positive attitudes?
Have we lost the right and/or the ability to prioritise our actions in relation to risk?
What scope is left for individual professional judgement in a world in which such judgements are retrospectively ridiculed?
Will there come a time when human intuition and judgement has become obsolete?

You can do what you like at home because you are not at work and we safety professionals are in the business of protecting the workforce, according to current legislation.

I still can't believe the number of so called safety professionals that would allow this potentially very highly hazardous activity.

That's the christmas eve rant out of the way so happy christmas one and all. ho ho ho