Rank: New forum user
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As a Health and Safety Advisor with a chemistry background I can see that the naming of chemicals can lead to some confusion.
Some chemicals that businesses use still have what is known as a trivial name rather than the proper chemical name agreed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry.
For example I recently advised a company on CoSSH and could see an old stock of acetic acid. This is the old trivial name the correct name is ethanoic acid. Another example is the carcinogenic tetrachloromethane
which has an old trivial name carbon tetrachloride.
It is so easy for companies to keep old stock and not really know what they are.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Are you looking for work then? If not, what is the reason for your topic?
LB
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Rank: Forum user
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And what is wrong with the name Acetic Acid? IUPAC it might not be but non-chemists and chemists alike will recognise that it's vinegar. The chemical "name" has little to do with COSHH so to attempt to ensure your clients only have IUPAC labelled chemicals is somewhat of a waste of time.
Many chemicals in use in industry are most well known by their trivial names methanol, ethanol, vinyl acetate, vinyl chloride - are you suggesting that all these be changed to their IUPAC naming that even a CChem like me finds difficulty in getting my head around
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Rank: Forum user
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What is the issue?
If doing a COSHH assessment the assessor should know what he is doing, and logically that includes the name and any commonly used alternate names for the substance being assessed.
And once assessed, the assessment should be presented in a manner that can be properly understood by all of those who may need to refer to it, and should thus include those commonly used alternate names if they too are in use in the establishment or referred to by users.
Communication skills are important in COSHH and other RAs. If those who rely on them cannot find their way through the technical fog then those assessments are unlikely to serve their purpose and need to be revised as a matter of urgency.
PS. I like a little vinegar on my chips, but even a splash of concentrated acetic acid would be way too much - I would hope someone would make absolutely certain that the two were properly labelled in a way that is clear and easy to understand in order to communicate the vastly different properties.
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Rank: New forum user
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I mention the naming system to highlight to none chemists some of the difficulties they and their clients face.
Of course it isn't possible to have everything labelled using the same system. I think it is desirable to have one system and stick to it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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There will indeed be confusion if you insist on calling it ethanoic acid! If you want to communicate the risks of using a material you need to refer to it by the name the user knows it by.
Materials are often known by a range of different names (including informal abbreviations) and then you may need to do some careful cross-referencing - for example if the name the user knows the material by is different from the one on the msds.
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Rank: New forum user
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I would agree that the names used in procedures and COSHH assessments should be those that are used on site. The MSDS will include relevant synonyms where these are required.
The only issues I have had are when common names for different chemicals are confused e.g. Methylated spitits/Meths/IMS confused with with Methanol. Or where Where different parts of the company refer to the same chemical by different names e.g. Isopropyl alcohol.
Chemical names are by not necessarily the most appropriate to distinguish between substances in use. e.g. the difference between fuming nitric acid and concentrated nitric acid.
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Rank: Guest
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Health and Safety Witney, Could you please call the UN Economic Commission for Europe and tell them that their "ADR09 European Agreement Concerning the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road" is wrong. Phone: +41 (0) 22 917 44 44
ADR09 clearly states Acetic Acid Solution, UN 2789 or UN 2790 as the proper name.
There is no reference to Ethanoic Acid.
Therefore any company transporting Acetic Acid, and call it Ethanoic Acid on their vehicles Placarding, are committing an offence under the Carriage Reg’s 09.
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Rank: Guest
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Also:
carbon tetrachloride UN1846
tetrachloromethane, not listed but could easily be confused with 1,1,2,2-Tetrachloro-ethane UN1702
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Rank: Super forum user
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Health and Safety Witney wrote:As a Health and Safety Advisor with a chemistry background I can see that the naming of chemicals can lead to some confusion.
Some chemicals that businesses use still have what is known as a trivial name rather than the proper chemical name agreed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry.
For example I recently advised a company on CoSSH and could see an old stock of acetic acid. This is the old trivial name the correct name is ethanoic acid. Another example is the carcinogenic tetrachloromethane
which has an old trivial name carbon tetrachloride.
It is so easy for companies to keep old stock and not really know what they are.
Health & Safety Witney, are you being serious or merely taking the Diaminomethanal?
I think that while IUPAC nomenclature must be used among among professional chemists and in learnéd journals, there is a serious risk of losing public support if you impose such a decision.
Just look at the metric martyrs.
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Rank: Guest
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Hi Yossarian,
The compound NH2-CO-NH2 is named "urea" in IUPAC.
or possibly even
as it has a keto group and two amino groups, and keto group gets the precedence. So, it should be named as:
diaminomethanone.
(not an aldehyde so it shouldn't have an "-al" suffix)
Sorry to urea on your fire. ;-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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wazimu0 wrote:Hi Yossarian,
The compound NH2-CO-NH2 is named "urea" in IUPAC.
or possibly even
as it has a keto group and two amino groups, and keto group gets the precedence. So, it should be named as:
diaminomethanone.
(not an aldehyde so it shouldn't have an "-al" suffix)
Sorry to urea on your fire. ;-)
Yes, I read that after I posted, but it depends on which source of reference you choose (no I don't have the IUPAC book to hand).
While it does somewhat ruin the joke, it emphasises the point that IUPAC nomenclature is not as simple a solution as initially proposed.
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