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David H  
#1 Posted : 13 January 2010 17:08:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

My son is working in a fabrication shop as a labourer. His wages are being paid by the agency that got him the job. He is having to use his own PPE. I say the employing company should be providing the PPE as defined in the risk assessment and not the agency. No mention in the contract. What do others think? David
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 13 January 2010 19:23:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

David A similar question has been posted in the past but for the life I cannot remember the outcome. Strictly speaking the employer should provide the PPE free of charge. So, it all depends who is deemed to be that employer. My money is on the Agency. I seem to recall some case law where the employer was deemed to be 'the person who pays the wages' and not the hirer. I also think that any company or Agency that does not provide PPE for staff is not very reputable, illegal and arguably amoral. I dare others will agree or disagree with my point of view.
David H  
#3 Posted : 13 January 2010 19:35:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

Hi Ray - thamks for the reply. I remember that debate and like yourself I cant trace it. My argument is that the employer is the one causing the risk - therefore should supply PPE. The agency is just the go between. Can anyone please supply details of the case law or the debate thread? Many thanks David
Canopener  
#4 Posted : 13 January 2010 20:06:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

As Ray has said this has been covered in the past, and unfortunately I don't think that you can search the 'old' forums. As I recall there were several opinions. As Ray has said it is strictly the responsibility of the employer, and this is normally, but not necessarily always the person that pays the 'employee' and deducts paye etc. I believe that the practice of requiring 'agency' workers to provide some or all of their own PPE is relativley widespread, and I don't think that there is much in the way of case law to assist to help give you a definitive answer (although be glad to hear of any). There is some 'stuff' in the ACoP and guidance to the management regs about temporary workers and agency workers, co-operation etc etc. But have a look at paras 27 and 30 of L25 though http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l25.pdf . In my opinion I suggest that the person 'best plcaed' to provide the PPE should be, and I would say that this is often the 'user' employer, although I suppose I can understand the reluctance of some employers to provide 'expensive' PPE for what may be a very short term use of a worker. Please don't jump on me for the comment, with all the moral/ethical arguments, I don't necessarily agree with that approach but understand why some employers may adopt it, and it is my understanding that a great many do adopt that approach. Try L25 27/30
David H  
#5 Posted : 13 January 2010 20:23:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

Thanks Phil. I am in a position to supply the PPE - in fact he has it from a previous job, but there are others in the place with training shoes and jeans. I will read up on L25 and let you know how we get on. regards David
Canopener  
#6 Posted : 13 January 2010 20:32:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

David I am trying to stay within the forum rukles, but if you google "Dacas vs Brook Street" and then hit the first link for www.healthandsafetytips.co.uk you might find this useful. I haven't read all of the cases but there may be something there that either helps or helps justify any decision you make.
freelance safety  
#7 Posted : 13 January 2010 21:07:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
freelance safety

This has come up on numerous occasions and the same answers as previously stated is correct. The employer is the duty holder, in this case the agency. Quite a bit of case law surrounding PPE and judicial precedent around (try Munkmans on Employers Liability and Redgraves Health & Safety) - available from most major libraries. If you need specific info, you can always send the information provider a PM. Hope this helps.
David H  
#8 Posted : 13 January 2010 21:22:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

Many thanks people - I stand corrected. I know have the information to plan a strategy, but I suspect my son will not push it. He is happy with the service of the agency and his "controller". I am thinking more of the other people employed who are not wearing PPE. Again - many thanks David
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 14 January 2010 07:14:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

having managed an international agency for many years I know that it is down to £; as at the initial contract stage the agency has to have/get enough £ in the kitty to supply PPE but on many an occasion the business employing the agency will not pay so the employee goes without - I used to work on 15% to allow for all areas but many agencies used to work on 05% so you can tell who was doing what with PPE but accountants only see the bottom line The employer is the agency but the 'controller' has most of the duties: Its as simple as that; so if the parent company who has commissioned the agency 'controls' on a day to day basis all that an agency person does then that parent company has the duties etc. Tax and NI are other subjects covered by other law and do not have 'controller' aspects I know of good companies who have paid a good rate to agencies but the agency has not bought PPE so they make more profit and the staff do without; so its swings and roundabouts What does a person do about such conditions? Firstly they should 'think' and get sensible advice because doing without PPE or doing without a job is the risk assessmenst that has to be made on some occasions The enforcers; in my personal opinion; know about the situation but as with other things its probably not at the top of their list of things to manage etc
User is suspended until 03/02/2041 16:43:28(UTC) IanBlenkharn  
#10 Posted : 14 January 2010 07:22:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanBlenkharn

As always, the devil is in the detail and those with an opinion have discussed this, backed by attempts to reference a bit of legislation. But I note one comment - David says that the lad already has PPE from a previous job. Isn't that too part of the problem? Agency workers pick up PPE items from their employer - whoever that is - and take it with them. That increases costs considerably and with a transient agency pool with workers moving not only from job to job but from agency to agency it must be difficult for an agency to bear the costs. It is understandable that employers (agency or otherwise) baulk at PPE issue to workers who will be 'employed' perhaps for a matter of a day or two. And everyone expects new issue! If agencies can't, or don't want to, provide PPE then at least there must be some comfort in the thought that the money saved might keep them in business. Boo! Hiss! But that means also the possibility of future job placement for those on the agency books. Perhaps it needs a little pragmatism, especially in these days when jobs are hard to come by. As they say, that's life.
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 14 January 2010 10:54:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Ian With respect, I think your point about agency workers going off with PPE is rather fatuous given the money they make from providing employers with transient workers. Most PPE is relatively inexpensive these days. Anyway, I have numerous hi-visibilty jackets, gloves, boots and hard hats provided by past employers - none of them have gone out of business.
andy.c  
#12 Posted : 14 January 2010 10:58:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andy.c

David H wrote:
Thanks Phil. I am in a position to supply the PPE - in fact he has it from a previous job, but there are others in the place with training shoes and jeans. surely the point is that if safety footwear is required then "the others" should not be in this working environment without them, secondly are the coveralls PPE or a welfare item to protect cloths, if they are PPE then how could an agency supply the correct coverall giving the required protection Andy
User is suspended until 03/02/2041 16:43:28(UTC) IanBlenkharn  
#13 Posted : 14 January 2010 14:48:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanBlenkharn

Rayrapp With businesses struggling for survival, even these low cost items can add up at the year end to a considerable financial burden If you have the good fortune to help yourself to bits and pieces of PPE from an employer that can bear the cost without detriment to their survival then good for you but I do think that not everyone will be in the same position. Agencies have to make money to survive, and if the survive they can offer employment to those on their books. When times are hard, everything will be cut back, and though you might think otherwise I suspect that this is one very obvious area that gets cut before the photocopier and stationery supplies. For what are simply office-based people management companies, it is hard to imagine that employment agencies will consider PPE items high on the list of priorities. The continuing issues that stem from this, and which have been discussed here on so many occasions, reinforce this point. I can't imagine the thoughts behind your quite unnecessary comments about the issue being fatuous. If there is a £2, £5, £10, £20 or £30 cost to every n'th placement for PPE propvison the impact on the balance sheet can be considerable. Perhaps your employer should keep an eye on your expenditure since you have a rematkably cavalier attitude towards their money.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 14 January 2010 15:07:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Ian Agencies charge a good amount for providing staff. for example, the agency that I work through has made approx £18,000 from my services in the last year, enough to provide some decent PPE, which they don't. Although amounts will vary depending on the skills/cost of the agency worker. Notwithstanding there is also a legal duty which some appear to conveniently forget. I have collected much PPE largely because soiled PPE is not normally returned. Boots are peculiar to the individual and not normally returned. The company I am contracted to provide PPE to virtually all our sub-contractors at a cost exceeding many tens of thousands of pounds per annum. The other side of your argument is that it keeps PPE manufacturers and suppliers in a job!
David H  
#15 Posted : 14 January 2010 20:49:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

many thanks for your comments folks. My son has put the question to his agency - I will keep you informed of response. Regards David
Frank E  
#16 Posted : 14 January 2010 21:20:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Frank E

It depends whether the person is directly employed by the agency. If the agency can't be bothered with payroll the employee might technically be employed by an umbrella company who expect their 'employees' to buy it themselves and claim it off the public purse.
ab risk  
#17 Posted : 15 January 2010 08:06:12(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

The following may be useful: http://www.businesslink....244387&r.t=RESOURCES http://www.hse.gov.uk/en...us-specific.htm#P26_5350 My view is it is a shared responsibility. The company is usually in the best position to know what PPE is required and most able to supply. The agency have a duty to ensure their clients are safe when placed with companies.
Juan Carlos Arias  
#18 Posted : 15 January 2010 10:03:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Juan Carlos Arias

At the end of the day, it does not matter who provides the PPE as long as it is not the employee. It all comes down to the contract between the agency and the company. IMO
alexmccreadie13  
#19 Posted : 15 January 2010 10:14:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
alexmccreadie13

I would suggest that this will only seem to be a problem in the manufacturing /retail industry. If anyone whether agency or subbie turned up on most Construction sites without the correct PPE they would have a very short working day. Common Sense not regulations would say that it is up to the Agency to supply as they hire and pay their employee.
Adrian Watson  
#20 Posted : 15 January 2010 13:08:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Adrian Watson

As the employer has the duty to provide, the agency should provide. However, they frequently do not know what to provide to ensure that persons are properly protected. As others have stated what does it matter who provides appropriate PPE it as long as it is provided. As an employer I would provide it and recover costs from the agency. Regards
johnmurray  
#21 Posted : 15 January 2010 15:01:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Quite simply: The employed person is either employed by the agency or the end-user of their service. Or NEITHER. Many, if not all, "agency employees" are only "employed" for short periods. Which allows them to not pay holiday pay etc. Many "agency workers" are registered with SEVERAL agencies (with collaboration between agencies high) (yes it is, I work for several) As for PPE....few agencies provide this, fewer end-users provide it. It has been put to me in the past: "which is more important to you, being in work or saving money" Far more seriously though is that many of the end-users have poor H&S at the place of work. A sign of the times. As [also] said to me in the recent past: "In times like this who cares about health and safety" http://www.emplaw.co.uk/...tartpage=data/029006.htm
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