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Phillips20760  
#1 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:34:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Afternoon, I have been asked, at short notice, (tommorrow!) to put together a presentation on the legal responsibilities of managers & supervisors with regards to health & safety. While employEEs legal responsibilities are quite clear cut (hasawa 7, 8 etc.), line management is not so. Am I right in thinking there are no specific statutory (safety) duties imposed on Managers, Supervisors etc., only those imposed on the employER as a whole? For example, a senior manager encourages an unsafe act and a fatality occurs. Could they be held accountable under any statute (could they be regarded as the employer...?) or would it just come under negligence / common law. Hope I've made myself clear, getting myself in a bit of a tizzy putting this together quickly. Best Regards, Ian
m  
#2 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:47:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

How about section 36 of HSWA? That covers where someone has been told to do something. S7, 8 also applies to managers of course, everyone is an employee. Same applies to the management regs
Heather Collins  
#3 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:47:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Canopener  
#4 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:48:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Ian - I shall try and be brief. The simple answer is that 'yes' they can be held personnaly accountabke and often are. The HSE expect managers to (wait for it) manage health and safety of their staff. They cannot expect to be managers in name only, the fact that they manage people means that they generally also manage their 'health and safety', I don't think that the two can be easily seperated. Managers as employees have the same duties under 7,8 and if you have a look at the HSE database you will see that they are prosecuted from time to time. If an manager encourages an unsafe act then they are likely to be guilty of an offence under S 37 - consent or connivance! I tend to find the 'employer' argument a strange one. What or who is 'the employer'? To my mind the 'employer' is made up of it's managers. Yes, of course 'employers' are prosecuted but it seems to me that the HSE/LAs are increasingly holding individual managers to account under S7 and S37. If managers think that they can hide, I am afraid they may end up being dissappointed.
Phillips20760  
#5 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:53:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

s37, **slaps wrist** See what happens when you rush.....! Thanks for your swift replies. Ian
Canopener  
#6 Posted : 19 January 2010 14:59:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Perhaps use an example - try Barrow Council, Gillian Beckingham, employee, manager, personal fine £15000
ahoskins  
#7 Posted : 19 January 2010 15:10:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

Don't forget that Sections 2-8 of the HASAWA now carry a possible penalty of up to two years imprisonment following the introduction of the Health and Safety (Offences) Act 2008 - £15000 fine isn't so bad after all, is it? :-( Alan
Kate  
#8 Posted : 19 January 2010 15:26:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

It may be worth mentioning the legal requirement to have a safety policy - and that this sets out the organisation and arrangements which should include responsibilities for managers and supervisors.
freelance safety  
#9 Posted : 19 January 2010 15:27:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
freelance safety

I've sent you a PM. Hope this helps.
firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2010 15:28:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Depending who you are presenting to - the line could be that all managers are representing the employer therefore HASWA etc.comes in and the employer - the company is responsible. It is therefore up to the employer to ensure all managers are adequately trained. Supervisors have been prosecuted for issuing instructions, under Sec 7/8 as they are employees. Recently the son of a factory owner, along with the owner, was jailed for being grossly negligent when firefighters died attending their factory.
Canopener  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2010 19:04:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Ian - sorry I was in a bit of a rush at #4 and sort of missed this bit "...a senior manager encourages an unsafe act and a fatality occurs. Could they be held accountable under any statute ... or would it just come under negligence /common law". The answer is that they most definitely could be held accountable, both under statutory provisions but also under common law. I was intersted in the use of the word 'JUST' to describe 'common law' though. Both murder and Gross Negligence Manslaughter are common law offences, and as offences go they don't come a lot more serious. Just! Gillian Beckingham was charged with 7 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaugter, she endured two trials, which I would guess were EXTREMELY stressful for her. She was subsequently found not guilty of the manslaughter charges but guilty of offences under S7 and as I have said fined £15 000. I have little doubt that the trial etc was a life changing event for her.
martinw  
#12 Posted : 19 January 2010 19:50:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

IOD and HSE put this together, may be relevant http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg417.pdf
Invictus  
#13 Posted : 20 January 2010 07:04:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

The Management of H&S regs are also applicable. It is all about the employer, i.e. reg 3 Risk Assessment The employer SHALL make a suitable risk assessment. Every regulation in the management regs starts with the employer and most say SHALL.
frankhone  
#14 Posted : 20 January 2010 09:21:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
frankhone

Managers can delegate responsibility but they cannot give away or delegate Accountability. so if they do make someone else responsible they need to check they are are carrying out that responsibilty becouse they the manager are still accountable
frankhone  
#15 Posted : 20 January 2010 09:22:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
frankhone

Managers can delegate responsibility but they cannot give away or delegate Accountability. so if they do make someone else responsible they need to check they are are carrying out that responsibilty becouse they the manager are still accountable forgot to put name Sos Frank
teh_boy  
#16 Posted : 20 January 2010 13:28:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Just to clarify. from my memory... (I've forgotten most law and management stuff after yesterday’s exam :) ) S37 only applies if it can be shown that the individual was directing mind as Phil points out in the case of Gillian Beckingham it could not be shown that ultimate say did not end with her. Therefore a line manager would not be held liable under s37 where they report to more senior manager or director. It was my understanding S36 (Fault of other person) was more applicable, as stated by m. If it can be shown responsibility was sufficiently delegated but the line manager was negligent. If a line manager is charged the director can still be charged under s37.
Billibob  
#17 Posted : 20 January 2010 14:51:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Billibob

I went to a legal update where a Court of Appeal case was quoted where the interpretation of Section 37 was amended. Whilst during the orginal trial was the "traditional" intrepretation that there had to be a "directing mind" the CoA interpreted it as the Crown only need prove that the Director(s) ought to have known of conduct giving rise to the breach of duty. Reference was made to the IOD/HSE publication for Directors as giving information to judges & prosecution to prove that the Director(s) ought to have known. It was also stated that the government was reviewing section 37 to align it with the rest of europe. The CoA also drew attention to the Disqualification of Directors Act in that conviction of a health & safety offence allows the court to disqualify a director for an appropriate period.
ahoskins  
#18 Posted : 20 January 2010 15:41:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

I believe that S.36 is usually applied to third parties, such as consultants who may give poor or incorrect advice. Generally, most managers would probably be 'done' under S.7 I think. Not aware of the change relating to S.37 so thanks for that! A
teh_boy  
#19 Posted : 20 January 2010 19:25:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

ahoskins wrote:
I believe that S.36 is usually applied to third parties, such as consultants who may give poor or incorrect advice. A
Best tell that to NEBOSH examiners :) That was good advice on the CoA stuff - why didn't I know that yesterday :)
ahoskins  
#20 Posted : 20 January 2010 20:17:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

Sorry teh_boy, but you always know the answer as soon as you leavw the examination room - I realised that I had not istalled any temporary lighting to clean a tank (enclosed space) until I left the exam... Stupid, but obvious. Still passed though so not too bad really. Hope you have the same success as I did! Alan
Invictus  
#21 Posted : 21 January 2010 07:01:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

frankhone wrote:
Managers can delegate responsibility but they cannot give away or delegate Accountability. so if they do make someone else responsible they need to check they are are carrying out that responsibilty becouse they the manager are still accountable forgot to put name Sos Frank
I always thought you can delegate the task but not the responsibility.
martinw  
#22 Posted : 21 January 2010 12:39:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

That is right, in health and safety. See R v British Steel 1995. Tesco v Nattrass 1972 was used in the British Steel argument. Regarding responsibility, Tesco won their case saying that it following a problem it was not the company's fault, but the manager in question at the site was to blame, despite the problem occurring in Tesco property. However, this was to do with consumer protection. British Steel tried to use Tesco's victory but their defence failed because this was not consumer protection, instead it was to do with health and safety which requires more stringent protection in law.
m  
#23 Posted : 21 January 2010 12:47:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

And one possibly for the future; a bill entitled 'Health and Safety (Company Director Liability) Bill' had its first reading on 19/01/2010, see http://www.shponline.co....news&article_id=9707
firesafety101  
#24 Posted : 21 January 2010 12:55:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Phillips20760 wrote:
Afternoon, I have been asked, at short notice, (tommorrow!) to put together a presentation on the legal responsibilities of managers & supervisors with regards to health & safety. While employEEs legal responsibilities are quite clear cut (hasawa 7, 8 etc.), line management is not so. Am I right in thinking there are no specific statutory (safety) duties imposed on Managers, Supervisors etc., only those imposed on the employER as a whole? For example, a senior manager encourages an unsafe act and a fatality occurs. Could they be held accountable under any statute (could they be regarded as the employer...?) or would it just come under negligence / common law. Hope I've made myself clear, getting myself in a bit of a tizzy putting this together quickly. Best Regards, Ian
I thought this was needed yesterday, any chance of an update Phillips ?
Phillips20760  
#25 Posted : 22 January 2010 10:25:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Hi all, Thanks for your replies, presentation was a success thanks! We discussed the legislation and recent court cases involving individuals. The most effective bit however was the "real world" bit as they like to call it.... We discussed practical ways of how managers can fulfil their responsibilities (leading by example, involvement, not turning a blind eye etc.) and it seems to have the desired effect - my phone hasn't stopped ringing since!! The reason for my OP was me being in a rush and not being able to find s37. Doh! I'm fully aware of civil negligence (nebosh drummed that into me!) but most statutory legislation refers to the employer as having the duty, with, as I see it, s37. providing the link to line management. Unfortunately, some line managers hide behind the fact that they aren't the employer and that safety is the responsibility of the safety manager or the M.D. (interestingly with the latter thinking the opposite!) The presentation has addressed this, and all managers are now aware. I recommend anyone running this type of presentation if they haven’t already done so. Best Regards, and have a good weekend. Ian
Canopener  
#26 Posted : 22 January 2010 20:34:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Ian - glad it went ok. A couple of years back I used the introduction of the CMCH Act as an 'excuse' to get one of our local HSE inspectors in to give senior managers a chat on their health and safety responsibilities. He gave a fascinating presentation and I could have listened to him all day! I can just imagine his wry smile and almost hear the rubbing of his hands on hearing managers say that they think safety is the responsibility of the safety manager! I fear that are going to be sadly disappointed!
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