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ptaylor14  
#1 Posted : 22 February 2010 15:21:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ptaylor14

I am doing a document mapping exercise with a FAQ section for managers in regards to H/S.
One of the questions asked was "when do I need to carry out a risk assessment"
I would be interested to hear your response to this question.
hurst7enterprise  
#2 Posted : 22 February 2010 15:36:10(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
hurst7enterprise

I would state that they are required to identify hazards and the associated risks of the workplace or task and the control measures needed to reduce the risk(s).

There are obviously many and varied risk assessments so long as they are site/task specific and signed off then, that probably is the key factors. Hope this helps
saferay  
#3 Posted : 22 February 2010 15:38:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
saferay

Unfortunately a large number of risk assessments are completed following an incident.

Short answer; when you can reasonably forsee a significant risk. Best time to do them; before comencing a new activity or process.

Adrian
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 22 February 2010 15:41:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I feel an interesting debate coming on ..........

The questioner has asked when not why.

Every work task is required to be risk assessed, and should include the worker.

Every time a job or a worker changes a risk assessment should be reviewed or re-assessed.

That should do for a start....................
Ron Hunter  
#5 Posted : 22 February 2010 15:44:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

How about:
"Before you embark on any new or substantially modified significant task, process or activity that is not already covered by existing assessments"
gillzlloyd  
#6 Posted : 22 February 2010 16:11:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
gillzlloyd

The Management Regulations do not specifically say when you have to do a risk assessment however it is implied that you should assess the risks in your workplace before you begin any new work. There are specific regulations e.g. COSHH which state that you cannot start work before you have assessed the risks COSHH covers. Generally risk assessments should be undertaken; before a new activity, when something may significantly change the risk i.e. change of worker, new equipment, new process, place of work; where it is beleived that the risk assessment is no longer suitable and sufficient i.e. if there has been an accident/near miss or on a 'regular' basis (according to the risk involved) i.e. monthly, annually.
Hope this helps.
Heather Collins  
#7 Posted : 22 February 2010 16:12:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

ChrisBurns wrote:

Every time a job or a worker changes a risk assessment should be reviewed or re-assessed.


I have to disagree with this Chris. "Every time" - no. Every time there is a significant change - yes.
Phil John  
#8 Posted : 22 February 2010 16:15:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil John

ChrisBurn

Not every work task has to be risk assessed.

Only tasks/activities with significant risks.

If every task was required to be risk assessed we would be carryout out a lot more than is required.

Phil
goose  
#9 Posted : 22 February 2010 16:50:55(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Every task has to be assessed but only significant findings have to be recorded.

Goose.
Safety Smurf  
#10 Posted : 22 February 2010 16:56:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Goose, you beat me to it.
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 22 February 2010 17:20:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Heather Collins wrote:
ChrisBurns wrote:

Every time a job or a worker changes a risk assessment should be reviewed or re-assessed.


I have to disagree with this Chris. "Every time" - no. Every time there is a significant change - yes.


So Heather, you don't consider workers significant?

I'm glad I don't work for you.
firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 22 February 2010 17:22:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

goose wrote:
Every task has to be assessed but only significant findings have to be recorded.

Goose.


Hooray get the flags out - someone agrees with me ha ha.

The original questioner asks when? Records are something else. Thank Goose.
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 22 February 2010 17:23:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Safety Smurf wrote:
Goose, you beat me to it.


Thanks smurf.
jericho  
#14 Posted : 22 February 2010 17:30:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jericho

It's a good question. I see that there are two possible strands here - when (chronologically) do I carry out a risk assessment and when (what would prompt me) do I carry out a risk assessment
Where I see that 5 steps lets people down is that it doesn't really prepare the ground for risk assessment; 'grab your clipboard and go hazard hunting'. Well in a small business that probably works to a degree. But in much larger organisations it simply doesn't. We (in my org) use 'tasks' as the focus for risk assessment. People, somewhere, doing something, with something. Our assessment is then a conclusion of how well (or badly) we do those things. Then we add controls blah blah. So, if we have a handle on tasks, when we plan those, we consider whether assessment is needed from scratch, whether we can modify an existing one to get us started or whether indeed we don't need anything. We keep a document called the Central Task Listing. It's an index of what we do. So when new things are planned we have something to link to. We try to perform assessment before the new task is undertaken - but we are not perfect. When a new task comes along and we feel that there are no significant findings, we put it on the list with an annotation that we looked and decided it needed no further assessment. That way the list grows and supports our decision making process. We can not only show the assessments that we have, but the ones we 'rejected'. If something goes amiss, we go back to the list, see if iw had it on there but decided it was insignificant or add it and ask was this occasion a 'freak' or did we miss something and it could happen again. So, really to answer 'when' or 'what prompts' is the same; when we are looking at something new.

As the task encompasses 'people' 'location' and 'equipment' it doesn't matter what the new thing is it triggers a look. New building? New role? New process? As they are all PART of a task, it gets looked at.

When we started the process, we found that we had loads of assessments but none of them were actually the ones that we needed. We are in a much better place now.
Goose was spot on in that one sentence, but as I said, 5 Steps or MOHASAW doesn't quite say that in crystal clear terms. It's the 'every risk' should be assessed bit that is unhelpful. Hang on, how do you assess a risk? Isn't risk the outcome of assessing something? If not we end up risk assessing a risk and recording significant risk of a risk causing a risk to someone - arrrgghh!

Chris
pete48  
#15 Posted : 22 February 2010 17:35:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

I was taught, long before any management regs I might say, that best practice was:
-when there is reason to suspect that it is no longer valid
-there has been a significant change in the matters to which it refers.

I have a suspicion that may have been built into the regs?

Thus any number of events can and should prompt a review such as those already noted. In addition perhaps, not just accidents but near miss events can indicate a need to review. Reports from UASR may be another. Changes in working patterns, shifts, major downsizing might be others.

Pete
Phil John  
#16 Posted : 22 February 2010 18:08:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil John

Goose

OK

Task/activity

Using a stapler; you’re going to risk assess that?
Writing with a pen; pencil risks assess that?
Carrying a ream of paper in the office from the stationary cupboard etc?


That is what I meant by every task not requiring a risk assessment.

Come on guys; you can't tell me you would think about these as risk assessments then decide there is no significant risk so I won't record it.

Isn't there more dangers around than the ones I have mentioned which can be called tasks?

Phil


Phil John  
#17 Posted : 22 February 2010 18:46:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil John

http://www.healthandsafe....uk/risk_assessment#five


What should I cover in my risk assessment – do I need to risk assess ‘everything’?

The law does not expect you to eliminate every risk in your workplace but it does require you to take all reasonable steps to protect people. Your risk assessment should focus on those things in your workplace that have the potential to cause real harm.


This is where I'm coming from guys..

Phil
Heather Collins  
#18 Posted : 22 February 2010 19:35:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

ChrisBurns wrote:

So Heather, you don't consider workers significant?

I'm glad I don't work for you.


It's always fun to take a quote out of context and try to make someone else look silly isn't it?

Where did I say I don't consider workers significant? What I said was that I don't consider a change of worker necessarily implies a significant change to the process which means you have to redo the risk assessment. Example - I have a trained experienced operator doing a job. Next day I have a different trained experienced operator. Must I redo the risk assessment? No. Is it practical to expect me to if changing the worker doesn't cause a significant change to the risk? No.

"every time a job or worker changes" is way over the top. The word significant is as important here regarding changes as it is in the example Goose rightly gave above about when findings need to be recorded, otherwise the whole thing becomes ludicrous.

Sensible H&S please. Or we'll all be wearing goggles to play conkers again...
firesafety101  
#19 Posted : 22 February 2010 20:47:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

ChrisBurns wrote:
I feel an interesting debate coming on ..........

The questioner has asked when not why.

Every work task is required to be risk assessed, and should include the worker.

Every time a job or a worker changes a risk assessment should be reviewed or re-assessed.

That should do for a start....................


Heather you are right it is a bit of fun but there is a serious side. Apologies if I offended you.

People are most important as it is them we are, or should be trying to protect from harm.

An example of a risk assessment method - when risk assessing an office task, (including the use of a stapler) I would collect all available information of the work and the employees and, if practicable I would assess that as one risk assessment. Probably a low risk so no need to record but retain the information collected for future use, when reviewing the assessment. It is essential to review the assessment when the worker changes because nobody knows how a new worker will react in a new situation. If a worker returns to a previous familiar work situation no need to review unless there have been other changes to the operation.


frankc  
#20 Posted : 22 February 2010 21:03:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

ptaylor14 wrote:
I am doing a document mapping exercise with a FAQ section for managers in regards to H/S.
One of the questions asked was "when do I need to carry out a risk assessment"
I would be interested to hear your response to this question.


If the tasks involve Work@Height, the answer would be in the organisation and planning stage to ensure it is carried out in a safe manner. (Reg 4)
Steve Sedgwick  
#21 Posted : 22 February 2010 23:14:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

A change of person doing a job / task is a training issue that may or may not need addressing. It is not a reason for a new risk assessment.
Ptaylor, I would be interested in seeing either you incompleted or completed document mapping exercise
thanks
Steve
firesafety101  
#22 Posted : 22 February 2010 23:52:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

If risk assessing manual handling, and we do not r/a the person than what do we assess, is it just the load? Of course it isn't.

So then we change the person, different stature, height, weight, age, sex etc. Do we still not assess the individual?

Watchy  
#23 Posted : 23 February 2010 05:48:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Watchy

jericho wrote:
It's a good question. I see that there are two possible strands here - when (chronologically) do I carry out a risk assessment and when (what would prompt me) do I carry out a risk assessment
Where I see that 5 steps lets people down is that it doesn't really prepare the ground for risk assessment; 'grab your clipboard and go hazard hunting'. Well in a small business that probably works to a degree. But in much larger organisations it simply doesn't. We (in my org) use 'tasks' as the focus for risk assessment. People, somewhere, doing something, with something. Our assessment is then a conclusion of how well (or badly) we do those things. Then we add controls blah blah. So, if we have a handle on tasks, when we plan those, we consider whether assessment is needed from scratch, whether we can modify an existing one to get us started or whether indeed we don't need anything. We keep a document called the Central Task Listing. It's an index of what we do. So when new things are planned we have something to link to. We try to perform assessment before the new task is undertaken - but we are not perfect. When a new task comes along and we feel that there are no significant findings, we put it on the list with an annotation that we looked and decided it needed no further assessment. That way the list grows and supports our decision making process. We can not only show the assessments that we have, but the ones we 'rejected'. If something goes amiss, we go back to the list, see if iw had it on there but decided it was insignificant or add it and ask was this occasion a 'freak' or did we miss something and it could happen again. So, really to answer 'when' or 'what prompts' is the same; when we are looking at something new.

As the task encompasses 'people' 'location' and 'equipment' it doesn't matter what the new thing is it triggers a look. New building? New role? New process? As they are all PART of a task, it gets looked at.

When we started the process, we found that we had loads of assessments but none of them were actually the ones that we needed. We are in a much better place now.
Goose was spot on in that one sentence, but as I said, 5 Steps or MOHASAW doesn't quite say that in crystal clear terms. It's the 'every risk' should be assessed bit that is unhelpful. Hang on, how do you assess a risk? Isn't risk the outcome of assessing something? If not we end up risk assessing a risk and recording significant risk of a risk causing a risk to someone - arrrgghh!

Chris
Morning Jericho, I have read your reply with some interest regards your system. Could you forward me the structure of this (if possible) to reveiw? It sounds very efficient. Thanks Chris
jericho  
#24 Posted : 23 February 2010 08:20:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jericho

Well, it is standing us in very good stead I have to say. The real, absolute and most crucial element is getting a good task listing before you do anything else. Once we had that, we were able to prioritise the order in which we wrote the assessments too. So not only were we filling gaps, but we were filling them in the right order. That way, we found that as we got down the list of priorities, the rest of the list started to take on a different look. We then reached a point where it was clear to us that to go further would be to stray into assessing the insignificant. There is a tricky bit to grasp on this, and that is the difference between significant RISK and a significant TASK. Significant risk as we all know is anything really that gets onto a risk assessment in terms of findings. Most people call it high, medium or low. Low risk isn't no risk. Neither is it insignificant risk. It's just the lowest category of significant findings - yeah? But how many risk assessments have I seen in my time, that have recorded findings that say 'insignificant'. What's that all about. Why have that on you 'assessment scale'?

We look at the significance of the task too and determine the relative importance of the task to our business. In other words, what would the faces of the jury look like of we said, 'No we didn't consider having a risk assessment to examine that task in further detail'? So a DC for example. What are the things that are core and central to it being a DC. Or a hotel, or a school? They may do some of the same tasks, but because of who they are and their overall 'risk picture' some of this may be pointless. Each organisation MUST set out its argument for where it draws the line of significance. We have been talking about staplers. Well do you need to assess their use? If I was a Royal Marine jumping into enemy territory under fire and I needed a stapler, I wouldn't be bothering with an assessment I can tell you. But perhaps if I worked in a care home for people with special needs, or maybe a post room, suddenly, staplers might become important. I'm not saying that they are folks, frankly I think that staplers fall into the trivial and mundane, but that's my view.

I am happy to chat this through, but might be better on the phone. To be frank, over the years I have spent a good deal of time providing written explanations such as you would like only to receive not so much as an acknowledgment back from the interested person. As I am on company time, it might be easier to just do it over the phone. I can send you some e-mail docs later if you want them. If you like I can send you a PM with my number. I am not a consultant by the way - my business realises that supporting the community through IOSH etc is good for us too. It's all good for CPD too isn't it.

C
Adrian Watson  
#25 Posted : 23 February 2010 16:00:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Adrian Watson

The question is when do I need to carry out a risk assessment; Well the answer is simple: 1) before carrying out any work; 2) before any significant changes; and 3) after an incident or accident.

You have to record the risks (i.e. the possibility of danger [R v Science Museum 1992]; the severity of injury and the likelihood of the injury in fact occurring [Paris v Stepney Borough Council 1953], any persons especially at risk, and the measures required to comply with the law [M(HSW)R 1999.

Jerrico's method is similar to the one I teach; I break the work into tasks/activities and then assess each task using 'APE ISLE' (Activity, Person, Environment (Physical & Social inc Time & Place), Injury, Severity from Event with the potential to cause harm. Then consider the preventative, protective and control measures needed and carry out a gap-analysis with the measures in place. If there is a gap determine if it can be closed; if not record why! Then record and implement risk assessment.

Regards
ptaylor14  
#26 Posted : 24 February 2010 09:52:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ptaylor14

Thanks to you all, thats as clear as mud!!!

I know how, I know why, I know to review, I know the hierachy of measures but still not when.
Heather Collins  
#27 Posted : 24 February 2010 10:00:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Posts 5, 6, 15 and 25 all answer the "when" question directly...

Post 25 is especially clear. What answer were you looking for if not this?
firesafety101  
#28 Posted : 24 February 2010 13:41:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Heather Collins wrote:
Posts 5, 6, 15 and 25 all answer the "when" question directly...

Post 25 is especially clear. What answer were you looking for if not this?


You forgot to mention post number 4 ?
RayRapp  
#29 Posted : 24 February 2010 13:58:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Posting later than others and obviously having the benefit of reading some posts I would like to first point out that it is a very good question. In simple terms a work related RA should be undertaken prior to any activity starting, following a significant change in the process, following a noteworthy accident, incident or near miss and if their is any other reason to believe the RA may no longer be valid.

Of course, not all RAs need to be recorded and therefore it may be just a simple process of reviewing the task to see whether there any significant hazards associated with it. If so, to formally record the RA and make it available to those whom it may concern. In short, it is to some degree a matter of judgement of HOW a RA should be reviewed, not a matter of WHEN.

Hope this all makes sense.
Clairel  
#30 Posted : 24 February 2010 14:05:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Chris did you really just say that you RA the use of a stapler in an office??

That saddens me.
redken  
#31 Posted : 24 February 2010 14:06:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

With all due respect but I feel it has to be said:
those who risk assess the use of staplers especially if they claim it is a legal requirement and then go onto to say that all tasks must be assessed ,are giving our profession a bad name. This is why we are held up to ridicule in so many quarters.
Heather Collins  
#32 Posted : 24 February 2010 14:36:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

ChrisBurns wrote:
Heather Collins wrote:
Posts 5, 6, 15 and 25 all answer the "when" question directly...

Post 25 is especially clear. What answer were you looking for if not this?


You forgot to mention post number 4 ?


Yes indeed I did, but that's because it's wrong :)

kev3152  
#33 Posted : 24 February 2010 14:51:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kev3152

What process do you use to decide what to risk assess?
Phil John  
#34 Posted : 24 February 2010 15:37:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil John

Redken

With all due respect but I feel it has to be said:
those who risk assess the use of staplers especially if they claim it is a legal requirement and then go onto to say that all tasks must be assessed ,are giving our profession a bad name. This is why we are held up to ridicule in so many quarters


When I posted my remark and go back that answer I could not believe my eyes and thought exactly what you wrote.

I have 4 Nebosh quals including Diploma, I have a good idea what to risk assess and what not to; so to see with my own eyes EVERYTHING has to be risk assessed, do some member understand risk assessments and what should be risk assessed; the answer to some is NO.

As you said Redken know wonder we are open to ridicule!

Phil
firesafety101  
#35 Posted : 24 February 2010 15:49:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

redken - ffion - Who said staplers need to be risk assessed? It wasn't me!

Heather - that's your opinion!
Clairel  
#36 Posted : 24 February 2010 15:52:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

You did.

"An example of a risk assessment method - when risk assessing an office task, (including the use of a stapler)"

The above is a quote from one of your posts on this thread.
firesafety101  
#37 Posted : 24 February 2010 15:59:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

clairel - that was as part of an overall assessment of a work task, not a separate assessment for the stapler. I only introduced the word "stapler" after someone else used it.

If you were to read my replies, post #19 in particular, you would see my approach to risk assessment is very similar to AKWATSON who has received a positive reaction to his reply.

I'm sure if Mr Watson were to risk assess an office task that involved the use of a stapler then he would include that in the assessment, but not as a single task.

Am I right, is it "elementary Mr Watson"?
Clairel  
#38 Posted : 24 February 2010 16:09:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

But it is the fact that you would even inlcude the stapler in the RA of an office that many (including me) have issue with.

If anyone said they would include an assessment of a stapler I would say the same thing. A stapler is not a significant risk and therefore does not need to be included in an office RA.

You have, however developed a reputation as being someone who is risk averse, wanting to eliminate all risk instead of manage it to a sensible level. Such an extreme and unwarranted approach will always receive a negative reaction from the majority who adopt a more reasonable approach to safety management. One that is promoted by the HSE who are at pains to stop over zealous H&S. Have a look at their example of a RA for an office. You will not see a stapler mentioned.
IanS  
#39 Posted : 24 February 2010 16:21:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanS

Not being picky Claire, but you have risk assessed a stapler and found it to be, quite rightly in most people's view, "not significant!".
barnaby  
#40 Posted : 24 February 2010 16:24:05(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

IanS wrote:
Not being picky Claire, but you have risk assessed a stapler and found it to be, quite rightly in most people's view, "not significant!".


Yes, and I think that is all Chris was saying rather than being risk averse (in this instance).
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