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CDM Q. Sub-contractor to PC
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safezone  
#1 Posted : 26 March 2010 18:07:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
safezone


A sub-contractor working for a housebuilder has been asked to work as PC on a site for the.

The organisation are normally sub-contractor for other housing developers.


They have been asked to act as PC for a duration of 2 weeks on a site where they will be erecting hoarding. They will be the only contractor on site and will only be the PC for 2 weeks.


Apart from provide welfare facilities such as toilets will there anything specific needed to be done as they will be the only contractor working.

A method statement has been issued and approved for the works to be carried out, the workforce are all tranined and competent etc.


Thanks

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firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 26 March 2010 21:37:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101
The PC will have to provide a Constructon Phase Plan according to CDM Regs and following on from the Pre Construction document. Relevant risk assessments required with all necessary documents and supervision.

There will presumably be a CDM Coordinator appointed by the Client who should know this.

See the CDM Regs for further more detailed duties.
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safezone  
#3 Posted : 27 March 2010 00:01:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
safezone


Hi Chris,


Thanks for the reply.


The company is a fencing company normally working as a sub-contractor.


They will literally be going on site just to put the hoarding up and that will be it. Should be done in two weeks and then off the site and will not be principle contractor again.

The client is a established new housing developer and i assume they would get someone else to become PC or dit it themselfs.

Will there still be a need to provide a construction phases plan etc as they will just be erecting the hoarding with thier own RA's and method statements, there will be no one else on site whilst this is done.


Thanks
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firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 27 March 2010 00:42:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101
I'm afraid the answer is yes.

Your PC should be named as the PC in the F10 notification to HSE. That will then be amended once another PC has been appointed. You should be seeking guidance from the CDM-C who should provide a pre construction plan to your PC.

I've sent you a pm, if you need any further guidance just ask.
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peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 28 March 2010 11:45:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch
Safezone

Nowhere in CDM does it state that the Construction Phase Plan shall be called the Construction Phase Plan.

If for your limited range of risks associated with erection of site fencing the method statement sets out what is required by CDM Regulation 23 then nothing wrong with calling it a method statement if this is what your fencing contractor is comfortable with.

P
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firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 28 March 2010 12:43:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101
peter gotch wrote:
Safezone

Nowhere in CDM does it state that the Construction Phase Plan shall be called the Construction Phase Plan.

If for your limited range of risks associated with erection of site fencing the method statement sets out what is required by CDM Regulation 23 then nothing wrong with calling it a method statement if this is what your fencing contractor is comfortable with.

P


Peter I have to say your competence to reply here is in question?

Reg 23 is all about the construction phase plan, I don't understand why you state what you have?

Managing health and safety in construction - the guidance document - Appendix 3, page 105 is all about the "Construction Phase Plan". It sets out the information to be included in the plan and how health and safety is to be managed during the construction phase.

It goes on to say that the level of detail should be proportionate to the risks involved in the project so that would mean a smaller Plan for the first 2 weeks as here then it would develop as the project extends.

I suggest that a method statement would not satisfy the needs of CDM.
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JayJay  
#7 Posted : 28 March 2010 17:14:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JayJay
Chris,

I totally agree with you A Construction Phase Plan should never be misinterpreted to be a method statement. 2 totally different pieces of documentation. Peter can you explain in a bit more detail as to your interpretation as i'm confused. This is what the CDM Acop states:

The construction phase plan
160 The way in which the construction phase will be managed and the key health
and safety issues for the particular project must be set out in writing in the
construction phase plan. This plan should set out the organisation and
arrangements that have been put in place to manage risk and co-ordinate the work
on site. It should not be a repository for detailed generic risk assessments, records
of how decisions were reached or detailed method statements, but it may, for
example set out when such documents will need to be prepared. It should be well
focused, clear and easy for contractors and others to understand – emphasising
key points and avoiding irrelevant material. It is crucial that all relevant parties
are involved and co-operate in the development and implementation of the plan as
work progresses.

As this states, the Construction Phase Plan should not be a repository for method statments, risk assessments etc. Also no construction should go ahead until the CPP has been produced and all parties are signed onto it. This includes hoarding as this is part of the process.

Regards, JayJay
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safezone  
#8 Posted : 28 March 2010 23:34:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
safezone


Thanks for the replies,



As the works are low risk and the project wont be going on for that long with no other contractors involved I take it that it a basic plan can be compiled.

Has anyone got a template that i could use ?

Thanks
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safezone  
#9 Posted : 28 March 2010 23:42:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
safezone

Also,


What courses would you recommend for CDM-C,


Im quite interested in becoming involved in CDM as i find it interesting.


Whats the job market like for CDM-C's and whats the wage like ?

Would be great to hear your veiws,


Thanks
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Heather Collins  
#10 Posted : 29 March 2010 08:57:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins
I'm not a construction expert but isn't this an odd way of doing things? Wouldn't you expect the company that is going to do the actual building to be the PC for the whole duration of the project and the fencing company (who to be honest don't seem to have the competence to act as PC) to simply be a sub-contractor to the main building contractor?

Is it usual to swap PCs after the first two weeks of the project? Just doesn't sound right to me - it is almost as though the main building company is trying to shirk responsibility for what is after all its site?

Safezone - you might want to start a separate thread in the careers' forum about CDM-C courses and jobs?
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safezone  
#11 Posted : 29 March 2010 10:22:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
safezone


Hi Heather,


I do agree with what your saying here, it doesnt make alot of sense to me either why there doing it.
Maybe as they will have no site presence until the hoarding is up ????

I would like to hear others views on your comments as well to see what they think.


Yeah good call, ill start a new thread about the CDM-C

Thanks
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firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 29 March 2010 11:11:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101
Heather,

It is quite usual for a client to appoint a Principal Contractor for the first small part of a project - especially in shopfitting. (I know this is not shop fitting). There are occasions when a strip out is necessary and a specialist contractor will be appointed for that - then the fit out contractor moves in.

There could be a need for new roof in preparation for other workers to arrive, then the roofer would be PC for that duration.

The PC is named on the F10 notification and then it is amended to include the name of the second PC. This is allowed for in CDM and the HSE have no issues with that.

I can understand in this instance the PC for the main duration of the project not being in attendance for the first few weeks as the perimeter fence is erected, , as this is contracted to the fencing company. No fence - no security. If this was required it would place extra cost onto the client.
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Heather Collins  
#13 Posted : 29 March 2010 12:02:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins
Fair enough Chris if it's common practice - as I said this isn't my area of expertise.

You would expect the CDM-C to have been appointed already though and to be able to advise in this case I assume?
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holyterror72  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2010 21:28:56(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
holyterror72
I think what Peter means is that a well developed method statement may cover the issues required for a Construction Phase Plan in this situation due to minor works being undertaken by one contractor for a couple of weeks. Another CPP would be needed after that anyway by the other PC.

I have always founds Peters advice in construction areas very useful. Besides, if you could only post on these forums where deemed competent it would be a lot quieter. Lol.
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