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RayRapp  
#1 Posted : 08 April 2010 15:27:46(UTC)
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RayRapp

I have been passed a document from a property agent stating that the building has no emergency lighting as per the Workplace (Health, Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992...and the duty falls to the tenant under the terms of the lease. The building is a two storey office and general stores built within the last few years with emergency lighting above all the fire exits. Not being overly familiar with fire legislation I am not sure what the agents require. Are they saying that the main lighting requires an emergency power source or what? The WHSW Regs, regulation 8(3) states: 'Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), suitable and sufficient emergency lighting shall be provided in any room in circumstances in which persons at work are specially exposed to danger in the event of failure of artificial lighting.' In which case, I would argue that persons are not 'specially exposed to danger...' Look forward to your comments - thanks.
Kate  
#2 Posted : 08 April 2010 15:57:56(UTC)
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Kate

Is there emergency lighting along the escape routes (at exits from each room, on staircases etc) as well as above the exits?
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 08 April 2010 16:18:20(UTC)
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RayRapp

Kate The building has emergency lighting above fire exits and in stairwells.
Kate  
#4 Posted : 08 April 2010 16:23:49(UTC)
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Kate

It's hard to see what more they could want then - maybe they have just made a mistake? Haven't recognised the emergency lights as emergency lights for example?
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 08 April 2010 16:40:07(UTC)
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firesafety101

It can be acceptable for torches to be provided as emergency escape lighting. It all depends on the fire risk assessment.
stuie  
#6 Posted : 08 April 2010 16:45:59(UTC)
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stuie

Also you can consider any natural light that may be there; not much in dark stairwell in winter maybe - but as others have said it depends upon the findings of the RA.
PhilBeale  
#7 Posted : 08 April 2010 17:19:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

RayRapp wrote:
I have been passed a document from a property agent stating that the building has no emergency lighting as per the Workplace (Health, Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992...and the duty falls to the tenant under the terms of the lease. The building is a two storey office and general stores built within the last few years with emergency lighting above all the fire exits.
This would also aplpy under the Fire safety Order. you will ned a fire risk assessment (possible that is what you might have) As well as emergency lights above the doors and stairwell you would also need them along the corridor roughly 4-10 mtrs apart also at intersection and to illuminate fire fighting equipment and changes in level etc etc. As other have said a torch might be acceptable but it would depend on numbers etc. you can change some standard light fittings over to emergency light units. they will work as normal lights until there is a power cut then the battery will kick in to give illumination. have a look at :- http://www.communities.g...ons/fire/firesafetyrisk2 free to download pages 26-30 & pages 100-102 Hopefully this should give you a starting point
Firesafetybod  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2010 19:44:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Firesafetybod

Hi Ray You can check out: (unless done already) http://www.planningporta...s/br/BR_App_Doc_B_v2.pdf Page 58 Lighting of escape routes And the Table 9 on page 59
RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 09 April 2010 07:39:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Thanks for your comments and links, which I will check out. The building is a modern building probably built with the last 5 years or so and one would have thought it was designed and built to the appropriate spec. I find it a rather absurd the leasing agent is putting the onus on the tenant to put right any fire related issues, when from a moral perspective at least, the responsibility should be theirs. Without checking the terms of the lease I cannot be sure the tenant, as they claim, has the duty except under the RRFSO. Hey ho.
bob youel  
#10 Posted : 09 April 2010 08:03:17(UTC)
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bob youel

in most cases modern light fittings have in built emergency lighting as against an easily recogniseable separate light fitting specificially put there for that purpose - check this out as looking for a distinct and separate light fitting may be the wrong way to go and is in many cases old fashioned
paul.skyrme  
#11 Posted : 09 April 2010 08:21:01(UTC)
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paul.skyrme

Conventional light fittings which have a built emergency facility will have a small but visible from the floor/exterior of the fitting led more often than not green or red. This is to indicate that the dc backup source (battery) is present and charged. It is not a replacement for EM light checks mind. However, it does allow you to identify which fittings are EM & which are not at a glance. There are also several other specialist guides by the Institute of Engineering & Technology (IET/IEE), the Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers (CIBSE), Society of Light & Lighting (SLL) & the Industry Committee for Emergency Lighting (ICEL), along with BS5266 to assist in the requirement for, along with the design and specification of emergency lighting. Paul.
PhilBeale  
#12 Posted : 09 April 2010 09:35:35(UTC)
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PhilBeale

RayRapp wrote:
Thanks for your comments and links, which I will check out. The building is a modern building probably built with the last 5 years or so and one would have thought it was designed and built to the appropriate spec. I find it a rather absurd the leasing agent is putting the onus on the tenant to put right any fire related issues, when from a moral perspective at least, the responsibility should be theirs. Without checking the terms of the lease I cannot be sure the tenant, as they claim, has the duty except under the RRFSO. Hey ho.
I have had a similar situation and afetr investigation it is normally down to the tenant to ensure the correct fire safety equipment is installed (emergency lights fire detection etc) I'm not sure why the leaseholder is carrying out an inspection on the space you are leasing as it would be your responsibility to carry out such work. was it a fire risk assessment the leaseholder has given you? As other have said have a look for your self where the emergency lights are, you should be testing them every month along with any fire detection system you have which should be done weekly and by an engineer every 6 months. i would look at getting your own fire risk assessment completed. as said before torches could be an alternative depending on numbers and you can prove they are readily accessible and charged. Phil
John D C  
#13 Posted : 09 April 2010 11:59:32(UTC)
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John D C

Hi Are we confusing escape lighting and emergency lighting? The workplace regs specifically talks about emergency lighting to enable plant etc to be made safe or where the lack of lighting would create additional hazards. The Guidance/ACoP states: The normal precautions required by these and other Regulations, for example on the prevention of falls and the fencing of dangerous parts of machinery, mean that workers are not in most cases ‘specially exposed’ to risk if normal lighting fails. Emergency lighting is not therefore essential in most cases. Emergency lighting should however be provided in workrooms where sudden loss of light would present a serious risk, for example if process plant needs to be shut down under manual control or a potentially hazardous process needs to be made safe, and this cannot be done safely without lighting. 66 Emergency lighting should be powered by a source independent from that of normal lighting. It should be immediately effective in the event of failure of the normal lighting, without need for action by anyone. It should provide sufficient light to enable persons at work to take any action necessary to ensure their, and others’, health and safety. 67 Fire precautions legislation may require the lighting of escape routes. Advice can be obtained from local fire authorities. In the scenario stated i would have said that if the escape routes are lit then you should be OK Take care John C
PhilBeale  
#14 Posted : 09 April 2010 12:18:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

I think we are talking about the same type of lighting (emergency escape lighting) the mains fails and low output lighting automatically operates to allow people to escape. As other have said refer to the linked documents. Another type of lighting would be a lot higher output used in high risk area (operating theatres for example) which would operate in less than a second and allow near normal lighting conditions. As said there aren't many cases where this would be needed especially in an office environment where there would be no need for such lighting. Phil
RayRapp  
#15 Posted : 09 April 2010 13:50:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The last two posts appear to confirm my own thoughts ie emergency lighting in a low risk environment should be confined to emergency exits and stairwells. I think I will advise the leasing agent accordingly, with a hint of pleasure...cheers. Have a good weekend.
peterL  
#16 Posted : 14 April 2010 10:38:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
peterL

Also do not forget that where there is sufficient borrowed light and the premises are not used during the hours of darkness that there is no need for emergency escape lighting; with the caveat that unless it has been determined by a previous risk assessment that areas of the premises may have insufficient light for escape purposes. Then you need to consider your requirements, but as most posters say I believe you are adequately covered in this instance.
RayRapp  
#17 Posted : 14 April 2010 12:01:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Since my original posting I have contacted the leasing agent to define what emergency lighting they are referring to. Their explanation as follows: 'The emergency lighting referred to in this letter is in regards to your external fire exits. It is a requirement for there to be an emergency lighting unit above each external fire door to assist in the event of an evacuation. Please note that these are external units & not internal as this will be covered by your own risk assessments.' Even more confused. I am only aware of internal fire exit signs which need to be illuminated in the event the mains is disconnected. Am I going mad?
bleve  
#18 Posted : 14 April 2010 12:25:22(UTC)
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bleve

external escape routes AD B Vol. 2 Table 9
PhilBeale  
#19 Posted : 14 April 2010 15:34:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

RayRapp wrote:
Since my original posting I have contacted the leasing agent to define what emergency lighting they are referring to. Their explanation as follows: 'The emergency lighting referred to in this letter is in regards to your external fire exits. It is a requirement for there to be an emergency lighting unit above each external fire door to assist in the event of an evacuation. Please note that these are external units & not internal as this will be covered by your own risk assessments.' Even more confused. I am only aware of internal fire exit signs which need to be illuminated in the event the mains is disconnected. Am I going mad?
They are correct in the fact that you need to ensure once people are out of the building they can find there way to the fire assembly point or at least to a safe place. do you have suitable street lighting in the area if there is then you could look at using this as a source of borrowed lighting which the guides do make allowance for especially given that people are now out of the building and just need to get a safe distance away from the building (the initial risk has passed). but if you are emptying people outside with no lighting and potential hazards to a safe place then you will need to have a look at this issue. but if the area is lit up like a Christmas tree with street lighting then i think they are going over the top. Phil
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