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ExDeeps  
#1 Posted : 12 April 2010 10:39:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Morning All,
I had an interesting moment yesterday in a large shopping centre. Lots of alarms going off and a recorded message saying "the fire alarms have been activated and the shopping centre staff are investigating - please listen for further announcements"
Some shops asked shoppers to leave and put staff at the doors, some closed their shutters and most continued trading as if all was well with the world.
Now for me, as an ex submariner and now working in large industrial sites, alarms mean "somethings wrong, you need to do something" but obviously there are commercial drivers at work too in a shopping mall. Could someone enlighten me to the way the mall management deal with this sort of scenario etc - I'm not looking to criticise but it would be interesting to know for various reasons not least of which is unit C of the diploma and the fire modules.
(By the way, the alarms drove me out of the building because they annoyed me but most people seemed completely at ease with the noise or perhaps chose to ignore it as there was no smoke or smell of burning....)
Cheers,
Jim
Julian  
#2 Posted : 12 April 2010 10:52:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Julian

Large sites probably operate a phased evacuation system. I would guess that there was a fire related incident that was probably well away from the area/zone that you were in. As smoke migrates into the next zone the 'warning' alarm changes into the 'evacuation' alarm.

Personally I am not an advocate of phased evacuation systems as they do cause confussion as you encountered. No matter how much training you give people they still become unsure as to what to do unless they are being to 'evacuate'
Paul Duell  
#3 Posted : 12 April 2010 11:25:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

I've no experience of shopping malls except as a customer, but our 9-storey office building operates phased evac, and our experience is probably similar.

If you try to evacuate all nine floors at once, the bottom couple of flights of stairs would quickly clog up with nine floors worth of people all trying to get out at once - as would the roads outside the final exit doors. I know the fire exits have to be adequate to take the number of people - but phased evac is part of the process for ensuring that.

If an alarm is triggered, the floor where the trigger is immediately gets the "please leave at once" message, while everyone else gets the "We are currently investigating an alarm condition and it may be necessary to evacuate - please listen for further announcements". Then after a specified time delay, each of the floors above the fire is cleared in turn, followed by each of the floors below the fire. The whole thing is planned to ensure that the people most at risk can leave as quickly as possible.

As an aside, at the moment we evacuate mobility-restricted people (using approved fire elevators) as soon as the pre-alarm goes, regardless of which floor they're on. We can do that at the moment as we only have a couple and we can get them out first without slowing anyone else's escape.

Phased evac isn't ideal, but if you imagine somewhere the size of Bluewater trying to evacuate everyone at once - for what might be a comparitively minor waste bin fire, shut away in a well-compartmented unit - it's easy to imagine panic and crush causing worse injuries than the fire could have done. Phased evac is probably the best way to manage the situation, although in the situation ExDeeps describes I'd comment:

1) It would be much better if what we call the pre-alarm said something like "We are currently investigating an alarm condition..." rather than "The fire alarm has been triggered..." - there's nothing like the F word to stimulate panic, although it sounds like just the opposite happened this time!

2) It would be much better to have a unified response from the shop staff throughout the mall, so that everyone in the "pre-alarm zone" was doing the same thing - whether that's business as normal or putting up the shutters.

Hope these comments are helpful...
PhilBeale  
#4 Posted : 12 April 2010 11:37:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

i would go along with what paul says about the phased evac. Another possible reason that some shops may still trade why other bring down the shutters could be down to the size of the store a large store like marks and spencers may want to avoid more people heading in their direction so they close the main shutters to ensure they don't get a flood of customers who might want to move away from the area that is in alarm. why smaller shops if they need to evacuate will be much quicker for them as they have a smaller area to clear and then secure. also the larger stores customers might try to use their store to evacuate through rather than the alternative fire exits. Which would make doing a fire wardens sweep of the store impossible if you have members of the public keep walking through

I was at a large shopping centre a couple a years ago where much the same as you described happened the big stores brought down the shutters but where happy for anyone still in the store to carry on shopping as the message was onl a standby.

normally there would be a silent alarm to the centre staff that the fire alarm has been activated they then have a couple of minutes to identify the cause to either confirm a fire or a false alarm. Obliviously on the occasion you where there they where struggling to find the cause so the alarm authentically goes into alarm after a couple of minutes.

Phil
ExDeeps  
#5 Posted : 12 April 2010 12:35:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Julian, Paul & Phil,

Guys, thanks for the replies - it's obviouse really, I just didn't think it through;
Phased evacuation - to avoid a mad, uncontrolled rush at the doors with potential accidents,
Fire zones to contain the fire - sometimes the safest action is to stay where you are as the residents of Shirley Towers were instructed to do last week when two of Hampshire's finest were tragically killed.

One observation on the shops that closed up their shutters - it was the ones with high value stock such as jewellers who were shutting not the large M&S types.....Commercial drivers to stop an opportunistic theft I suppose,
Cheers,
Jim
Steve Granger  
#6 Posted : 12 April 2010 15:10:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Granger

it is also used to be a very good tactic to elicit theft, one person in shop with goods held ready, one triggerst the alarm. Confusion = opertunity.

Thank goodness for cctv and long live Big Brother I say!
DavidFS  
#7 Posted : 13 April 2010 13:13:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidFS

Sorry if this is a bit late, but I too only have first hand experience as a customer at Meadowhall, Sheffield. The affected area was evacuated. However, as a fire risk assessor & H&S Advisor in a large employer, I have some difficulty with this where there are (apparently) no smoke doors to partition areas off to prevent smoke from spreading in the event of a serious fire. Smoke logging could easily & remarkably quickly affect other areas, though this should trigger the alarms elsewhere leading to further evacuation. The design of the building & facilites contained in it, e.g. smoke venting, would all play a part in the final policy. Where it's a small compartmentalised fire, local evacuation should prove to be sufficient on the day. A major store, (e.g. M&S or House of Fraser store) on fire would almost without doubt demand total evacuation.
JG  
#8 Posted : 14 April 2010 10:09:42(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JG

Large groups of people (members of the public) do tend to have a strange attitude towards fire alarms and evacuations. In my experience at work people evacuate if the fire alarm sound, but this doesn’t seem to happen if they are in public places such as supermarkets. Twice I have been in supermarkets where the fire alarm has sounded and people either didn’t know what to do or did not want to evacuate. The last one I witnessed the people that evacuated right away chose to exit the building via the main entrance and ignored the security tagged fire exits that were much closer. Most people simple ignored the alarm and continued to shop. When staff asked them to exit the building, the ones that had paid for their shopping protested and wanted to stay. Incredible!!!
PhilBeale  
#9 Posted : 14 April 2010 15:44:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

Ideally shops should make allowances for this type of response from customers and have the staff trained to get people out of the shop. this is where voice alarms work so much better when it comes to members of the public as it is clear what is happening and it's not just someone ringing the the bell for the back door.

On an equal not i was shopping in tesco when they had a fire alarm i went for the nearest exit to find they now have magnetic locks on the doors. you have open a tamper evident cover before you can get to the button to release the doors. I can understand this in some situation but they seem to install them as standard rather then based on if the doors have bee used for improper purposes before. Also a member of staff tried to stop me from using these doors. I quickly explained that's a fire alarm and these are fire exit doors. Lol

Phil
JG  
#10 Posted : 15 April 2010 15:06:09(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JG

Just to add to my previous post, the first supermarket I referred to, when the staff evacuated it appeared that their fire assembly point was on the pavement on the other side of the road, So not only were they having to cross a road, there were some many of them that some of them had to stand in the road.
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