Hi Phil Commercial (non domestic) premises should not be a problem. If you are happy with the training provided and the ability of your emplyees then I do not see any further cause for concern.

Phil The training that you have given is great; I don't want to devalue it in any way. But (there had to be a but!) I think it's actually the second line of defence. Their first line is to ask the person in control of the premises. The onus, as Ron points out above, is on them to know. Not guess or surmise, but know what is in their premises. Your engineers' training only cuts in after they have received the blank looks, shrugged shoulders etc. In my view, your engineers have a vital role to play in mithering the laggards to do something.

Ron/Jim, It is not the duty of anybody to produce an asbestos register. It is the duty of the person in control of the premises to manage asbestos, including informing persons of the product types and locations of the materials. It is the duty of the employer to ensure the safety of persons. To that end persons should be trained to identify non-asbestos (note non-asbestos) materials and instruct workers that if it cannot be identified as being a non-asbestos material it must be treated as being asbestos and that appropriate precautions must be followed. They should also be taught always to ask "is there any known asbestos in this building, if so can you show me?" and the procedures to be followed if asbestos is discovered, disturbed or damaged. Regards

Akwatson is of course spot-on from a strict legal perspective (Regs 4 & 5 of CAR as I recall?). I however favour and pomote a more pragmatic and practical approach for all but the simplest and smallest of properties, and that in turn involves the creation and maintenance of an Asbestos Register based on (at least) a Management Survey (which should be updated as other survey, sampling and analysis and removal/remedial works are undertaken). There are several weaknesses here of course, including the non-compliant duty holder (occupier/employer/landlord etc.) and the often limited approach and baseline knowledge of asbestos surveyors about asbestos materials in fixed plant and equipment. Thus my suggestion that the employer of the Service Engineers has to do a bit more research and provide his engineers with more info about the ACMs historically used in older boilers, cabinets, heaters etc. If you're lucky, the Site ARR may state 'presumed'. Often it won't say anything - some Surveys (and therefore Registers) do tend to focus somewhat on building fabric issues. I admit to being puzzled and more than a little concerned by this concept of being trained to recognise that which is "non-asbestos". In its heyday, manufacturers of ACMs made every effort to "mimic" everday products - even wood. ACMs are also often 'hidden' just below a recent plaster-skim. I say again - Registers built from sample and analysis data (surveys) ensure compliance and keep people safe. Anything else is guess work.

Yes Adrian, my point being that avoiding all other materials as "potentially unsafe" won't get you very far beyond working on bricks, brieze blocks, ceramics and glass - and that's not an entirely practical approach for the building and maintenance trades. I would also readily concede that Registers out there often leave a lot to be desired. A key point in training is to recognise these faults, such as confusion of room number/ident systems, missing rooms, areas of silence and 'presumed' ACMs etc. I fear we are moving beyond the initial poster's query here though.

The problem for Service Engineers is that they are generally called out for emergency repairs rather than true servicing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The premise occupier certainly has the major role and the asbestos management plan has to be the first port of call together with its general register of known ACMs. Treat the latter with caution though - it can never be totally complete. From your point of view some tasks could indicate penetration potential through non-surveyed structure and yo may be able to filter these out at the time of order with suitably structured systems. Bob

philb To me 'obligation to inform' means that the maintenance engineers must be directly informed by the Duty Holder – owner or occupier. In a hospital the appropriate facilities department should identify the location of any asbestos containing materials and its condition to the engineer. This should relate to the area(s) they will be working in. It should not be for the engineer to wade through documents to get to the information they need. A quick look at some Local Authority policies confirms that they provide the relevant information to those who need it and do not just give them access to a register. Cheers. Nigel