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Paul911  
#1 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:47:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul911

We insist that all our employee wear Hi Vis Vest around WPT. We provide them with the standard yellow variety. However, some of our more fashion conscious employees have purchased their own black ones consisting of a reflective stripe. To my mind these are only really useful at night in headlights etc., but they are still sold as "Hi-Vis" vests and that is afterall what we have insisted that employees wear. I suppose I could argue that as we stipulate them, we must also provide them, but I just wondered whether anyone else had any thoughts on the effectiveness of the black variety. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:52:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Chocolate fireguard comes to mind A few years ago there was a site in London where the PC required a "uniform" style of high viz in the form of navy blue vests with reflective strip. These are occasionally appearing on sites I visit, I require immediate change into the yellow colour. I agree with you that they are only useful in the dark and are in effect "Low viz"!
PhilBeale  
#3 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:56:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

Could you post a link to the black ones you are referring to as i don't think i've seen this type. To my mind the bright yellow of the vest is what is going to get someone spotted if they are wondering around a construction site or warehouse. i don't think the reflective strips play a big part in this other than at night when car or other lights would reflect back to say the car driver. I can't see how a vest that is black could still be seen as high visibility when you are just relying on the reflective strip to know that the person is there as this would require a source of light in the correct direction. Phil
bleve  
#4 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:56:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bleve

If it meets the requiremnent of BS EN 471, there is no issue.
grim72  
#5 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:59:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

You should be stating that the hivis conforms to EN471, this specifies the colourmetrics required. In fairness EN471 relates more to what is required for the highways and byways but if you specify it will ensure it is either yellow, orange or red that is worn on site. It all comes down to the amount of background material in relation to the reflective stripes so for the truly fashion conscious there is a little room for maneouvre on sleeved hi-vis. This allows for a certain amount of non-yellow material - hence you may occasionally see a jacket with blue trim around the cuffs and hem (areas most likely to get dirty). Apologies for rambling but hopefully it helps.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 21 June 2010 12:02:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I suppose if the background is yellow a yellow vest would not be any use? Perhaps the black do have their place, say in the Arctic or on an Alpine ski slope? "Risk assessment"
m  
#7 Posted : 21 June 2010 12:07:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

ChrisBurns wrote:
I suppose if the background is yellow a yellow vest would not be any use? Perhaps the black do have their place, say in the Arctic or on an Alpine ski slope? "Risk assessment"
Yellow would be unsuitable in a custard factory, banana processing plant or a canary breeding establishment (still feeling Fridayish!)
PhilBeale  
#8 Posted : 21 June 2010 12:15:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

Or if you lived in a yellow submarine.
Lol Phil
Guru  
#9 Posted : 22 June 2010 11:34:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

I would suggest, as previously pointed out, that only clothing that complies with EN471 should be worn where an assessment has identified a need for them. EN471 stipulates a combination of fluorescent material and retroreflective material.
frankc  
#10 Posted : 22 June 2010 12:05:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Paul911 wrote:
We insist that all our employee wear Hi Vis Vest around WPT. We provide them with the standard yellow variety. However, some of our more fashion conscious employees have purchased their own black ones consisting of a reflective stripe. To my mind these are only really useful at night in headlights etc., but they are still sold as "Hi-Vis" vests and that is afterall what we have insisted that employees wear. I suppose I could argue that as we stipulate them, we must also provide them, but I just wondered whether anyone else had any thoughts on the effectiveness of the black variety. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
If you're the boss, make them wear yellow Hi Vis...and tell them it won't cost them a penny. Next thing they will want to turn their hard hats round the 'other way'...
Phillips20760  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2010 12:44:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Thanks
If you're the boss, make them wear yellow Hi Vis...and tell them it won't cost them a penny. Next thing they will want to turn their hard hats round the 'other way'...
On the contrary, just 'making' workers comply with rules is often the reason why the rules are not adhered to. The OP needs to conduct a RA (which this post is obviously part of) and then clearly communicate these findings to the workforce. If the outcome of the RA states that EN471 should be worn then so be it - explain why and then enforce. Ian, FYI: In garages I have worked in, the RA has deemed that dark blue overalls with reflective strips were deemed suitable for internal areas (hi viz, but not high visibility accoridng to EN471), however in external yard areas the RA deemed EN471 was necessary so vest stations were supplied. (just an example of how different RA's in different workplaces might have different outcomes)
Safety Smurf  
#12 Posted : 22 June 2010 14:02:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

I once worked in a highbay warehouse which used Very Narrow Aisle Trucks. Anyone entering the area had to wear yellow hi-vis. The company actually sold these vests as part of it's product range and after a while started to notice stock discrepencies. Thinking (probably correctly) that staff were forgetting their own and pinching the stock, they decided to buy in orange ones for the staff as these weren't stocked. The very narrow aisle trucks were made by BOSS and were finished in standard livery........Orange!
frankc  
#13 Posted : 22 June 2010 14:23:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Phillips20760 wrote:
Thanks
If you're the boss, make them wear yellow Hi Vis...and tell them it won't cost them a penny. Next thing they will want to turn their hard hats round the 'other way'...
On the contrary, just 'making' workers comply with rules is often the reason why the rules are not adhered to.The OP needs to conduct a RA
I would be of the opinion a R/A is already in place, hence the requirement for Hi Viz around WPT in the first post. If the original R/A deemed black Hi Viz with a flourescent strip as suitable, then let them wear it but i very much doubt it as he has already pointed out they are only work well at night.
Betta Spenden  
#14 Posted : 22 June 2010 22:42:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

I'm not saying Yeah. And I not saying Nae, but: Black is not actually a natural colour in nature. Look around. With the exception of cars what else out there is black, if fact what else is black with silver stripes (mines rescue at Mansfield excepted). If it’s different it stands out.............maybe. Anyways, it worked for Captain Black in the 60's. The Mysterons saw him coming miles off.
Guru  
#15 Posted : 22 June 2010 23:01:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

Nobody can tell me that this type of vest is prefrable over a normal EN471 compliant vest, i dont care where their working. A hi-vis vest provided exactly that, hi visability, on 2 fronts fluorescent material and retroreflective material, this vest IMO is a joke. http://www.head2toesecur...ack-hi-viz-vest_full.jpg
PJG  
#16 Posted : 22 June 2010 23:38:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PJG

I could ramble but I wont... You have the answer... a Risk Assessment is required. When you identify PPE as a control measure then you should also specify the type and classification of PPE in order to complete the risk assessment fully. It is not enough to simply cite either ..PPE -or- Hi Vis. For those citing black (ish) materials as High Vis as detailed in your RA... tut, tut! You can reflect (no pun) what you want on a RA but that don't make it suitable and sufficient! Me thinks someone lost their objectivity along the way there...
Twinklemel  
#17 Posted : 23 June 2010 09:10:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Twinklemel

How about carrying out your own wee experiment, using staff wearing the black vests and others wearing the yellow - maybe have a driver in a stationary vehicle and see if he could spot the two people in his mirrors? Before anyone jumps on this post, I am *not* saying have forklifts and lorries zooming around the yard and send a couple of guinea pigs out and see if they get run over or not, tempting though it is............. :-)
Promenade  
#18 Posted : 23 June 2010 09:43:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Promenade

You say you insist your employees wear reflective vests. I take it that means it is your stated, written policy. That means that you should provide PPE, purchased from a supplier who (supplies) PPE in accordance with recognised UK standards. To me colour is not exactly the issue here. If a person is injured, or worse, on your premises, someone will "find" a way to blame that vest, not supplied by you, and not insisted upon by you, although stated in your policy. I suggest you clarify your policy, purchase the corresponding vests, and insist employees wear those vests and not something of their fashion choice. I have had cases where employees have tried to wear so-called sports sunglasses. Cricket ball poof, but not approved by for example, OSHA, who's stated standards the company subscribed to. They were politely asked to remove them and wear the bog-standard company supplied glasses. They provided adequate protection for the employee, and potentially kept the company out of court.
Phillips20760  
#19 Posted : 23 June 2010 09:48:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Ha sounds fun! Although I doubt the result of any experiment or RA would advise anything other than EN471 clothing in external yard & traffic areas. This standard specifically details yellow, orange-red, or red.
Mick Noonan  
#20 Posted : 23 June 2010 11:18:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

It's amazing how people complicate something as simple as PPE, but they do. Your people are reverting to Black because they prefer it, in other words they feel it's more stylish. Even seen people (scaffolders are my worst offenders) wearing safety sunglasses well into darkness because they "prefer" them to the normal ones? It's the same with your people wearing black Hi-vis. The EN471 standard applies, the yellow/orange/red colour helps human periferal vision detect movement and it's the same reason public night time lighting uses the same colours. Explain your reasons and enforce your policy.
redken  
#21 Posted : 23 June 2010 12:26:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

Betta Spenden wrote:
Black is not actually a natural colour in nature. Look around. With the exception of cars what else out there is black, Coal, oil, tyres, bin bags, soot
grim72  
#22 Posted : 23 June 2010 12:46:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Technically speaking, black is not a color at all. Color is the way we perceive light of a given frequency, black however is an absence of light. It is the equal absorption of all frequencies of visible light, creating the maximum contrast to white, which is the reflection of all visible color frequencies. But personally, I would agree with redken: coal, oil, my dog, hair etc could be classed as black in my opinion. That said I would stillinsist on my employees wearing EN471 standard hi-vis clothing.
Betta Spenden  
#23 Posted : 23 June 2010 17:37:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

Paul. My feeling is that your geezers are probably having a laugh at your expense. Whilst I am willing to argue that black in not natural, the truth is that I would not actually be happy if my staff were dressed in black and I would not be comfortable with it. It’s just not cricket. The answer is buy yellow or orange and be done. You (your company) should be doing that (buying them) anyway. Then draw the line and let your managers manage the situation. Good luck by the way. As for black, yes I did physics at school as well so I agree it is not technically a colour, it’s an absence of colour, absorbing all light. But the fact is that black is NOT a prime natural colour in nature. Black dogs and cows? Man made breeding programs. Black panthers? A freak of nature with Jaguars. And they are not actually all black. Bin bags and tyres? Manmade items that don’t grow on trees (however, natural rubber is greyish and comes from trees). The RAF did an experiment with aircraft colours some time ago in the 1980’s. They concluded that grey blends in better with the background (any Man U fans out there remember the grey football shirts fiasco, designed so that fans would wear them with jeans? The players blended into the crowd and missed passes), but black (being an un-natural colour) stands out better than even red and/or orange (at all levels). Hence the reason why all British fixed wing combat aircraft are grey and "none combat" aircraft (including rotary winged) are; and have been since the early 1990's, painted black. This also includes most Police choppers. Now that fascinating school boy fact would be applicable if your staff were whizzing around at FL150 at 450kts, which I doubt. I have three dogs. At night when let loose in a field the brown cocker vanishes first, then the white one. But even on the darkest nights the black cocker is still visible long after the other two have blended in. Back on track and back to your question. It isn’t right and you have a good reason to be concerned. So I recommend that you ditch the black vests.
frankc  
#24 Posted : 23 June 2010 19:07:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Betta Spenden wrote:
I have three dogs. At night when let loose in a field the brown cocker vanishes first, then the white one. But even on the darkest nights the black cocker is still visible long after the other two have blended in.
Have you tried fitting them with Hi Viz jackets? Just a thought........
Betta Spenden  
#25 Posted : 23 June 2010 20:09:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

Cracking idea, LOL. Hi-vis vest are available for dogs along with flashing collars. NICE....
Guru  
#26 Posted : 23 June 2010 23:12:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

Im sure there was a guy on the news, good few weeks back that kitted out his sheep dogs & seep with LED vests and had them running about in a field during the night. Pretty spectacular effect.
Captain Scarlet  
#27 Posted : 24 June 2010 06:18:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Reflective V's Hi-visability, I would have thought the easiest way to solve that one would be to have a PPE operating standard drafted, that actually goes into the specifics of the why's / when's / the what's etc, so your ploicy clearly acknowledges adherence to PPE standard and other specific operating standards, thus keeping the policy document lightweight. Exactly what are the reasons for wearing reflective vests anyway? Are the warmer / cooler (temp not hip) / cooler (hip not temp.) / do they have pockets etc etc etc, or are the staff just f@rting in your face? The pleasures of Elf & Safety know no bounds
PhilBeale  
#28 Posted : 29 June 2010 16:32:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

"(any Man U fans out there remember the grey football shirts fiasco, designed so that fans would wear them with jeans? The players blended into the crowd and missed passes)" the England team didn't do much better in red or white LOL Phil
wizzpete  
#29 Posted : 01 July 2010 10:49:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wizzpete

If you state that Hi-vis is to be worn, then you (your employer) must supply it. You cannot expect an employee to provide safety equipment at their own expense that you stipulate must be worn. You supply it, manage its use and therefore have complete control over the specifications.
Clairel  
#30 Posted : 01 July 2010 10:57:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

wizzpete wrote:
If you state that Hi-vis is to be worn, then you (your employer) must supply it. You cannot expect an employee to provide safety equipment at their own expense that you stipulate must be worn. You supply it, manage its use and therefore have complete control over the specifications.
That's not strictly true. The employer doesn't haver to supply it just pay for it (within reason). It is not uncommon for employees to buy their own safety shoes etc and the employer pays a price towards them or sometimes the full cost. The employer only has to pay for standard safety equipment if the employee wants something fancy then they must pay the excess. Obviously the employer needs to check that it meets current safety standards but other than that it is down to the agreement between employer and employee. I've seen it all. Including pink safety boots. As for the oroginal post. Personally I see a black hi-viz tops as being ineffective in daylight conditions. Not wearing tops for me is an issue only in so much as I think it looks unprofessional and most blokes on construction sites have less than desirable bodis that I really would rather not see more of!! If they have been given the information about skin cancer and yet still choose to put them selves at risk of skin cancer, that is their look out. They'll be the same ones lying on a beach in Spain during their holidays going a nice shade of pink with accessories of blisters. Mad dogs and Englishmen and all that!!!
Hector41649  
#31 Posted : 01 July 2010 11:54:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Hector41649

Do ladies not fall into this category? Or is it just us men..... again....just a thought
Mick Noonan  
#32 Posted : 01 July 2010 12:05:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

The black "Hi-vis" vests you describe are not, IMO, hi-vis at all. The reflective stripe works brilliantly in the dark, but the science doesn't transfer to daylight hours. The hi-visibility function lies in the colour of the garment and black is NOT "hi-vis". What next, army camouflage print? Aircraft carriers, famously, adopted different coloured jackets for the different jobs/functions of the people working on the flight decks. In this instance it wasn't just so that they could be seen, it was so that people could recognise who (job groups) was on deck.
Clairel  
#33 Posted : 01 July 2010 12:54:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Clairel wrote:
wizzpete wrote:
If you state that Hi-vis is to be worn, then you (your employer) must supply it. You cannot expect an employee to provide safety equipment at their own expense that you stipulate must be worn. You supply it, manage its use and therefore have complete control over the specifications.
That's not strictly true. The employer doesn't haver to supply it just pay for it (within reason). It is not uncommon for employees to buy their own safety shoes etc and the employer pays a price towards them or sometimes the full cost. The employer only has to pay for standard safety equipment if the employee wants something fancy then they must pay the excess. Obviously the employer needs to check that it meets current safety standards but other than that it is down to the agreement between employer and employee. I've seen it all. Including pink safety boots. As for the oroginal post. Personally I see a black hi-viz tops as being ineffective in daylight conditions. Not wearing tops for me is an issue only in so much as I think it looks unprofessional and most blokes on construction sites have less than desirable bodis that I really would rather not see more of!! If they have been given the information about skin cancer and yet still choose to put them selves at risk of skin cancer, that is their look out. They'll be the same ones lying on a beach in Spain during their holidays going a nice shade of pink with accessories of blisters. Mad dogs and Englishmen and all that!!!
Apologies I don't know why I started waffling on about no tops on men at the end there, must have subconsciously started thinking about the other thread on hi-viz and no top. What can I say, it's been a tough week!!!
Clairel  
#34 Posted : 01 July 2010 12:55:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

....nopw if we had an 'edit' function I could correct my silliness and put it on the right thread!! ;-)
DNW  
#35 Posted : 02 July 2010 08:51:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DNW

Hi All, Just to enlighten you all, a standard High Vis vest is actually Green, not Yellow :)
Thundercliffe26308  
#36 Posted : 02 July 2010 09:08:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Thundercliffe26308

....aaahhhhhhhhhhh BUT........ if you put it on a worker with no shirt ...and they work in the sun ..BUT THEY ARE WEARING SUN CREAM.......DOES IT TURN YELLOW???
PJG  
#37 Posted : 04 July 2010 23:31:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PJG

DNW wrote:
Hi All, Just to enlighten you all, a standard High Vis vest is actually Green, not Yellow :)
It was inevitable this would come up!!!!! DNW… colour is simple a shade and there are many factors affecting individual perception to the shade being interpreted… accordingly, you are not alone in your green analogy, but you are in the minority. Both beauty AND colour…. Is in the eye of the beholder!
alan_uk  
#38 Posted : 06 July 2010 16:07:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alan_uk

The police are having to make cutbacks - right? well considering some of the themes represented in these topic postings, they could save a fortune by scrapping the high vis stuff they wear and simply reverting to their black uniforms. !!
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