Rank: Forum user 
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Are they worth their weight from a purchasing perspective?
They look quite comprehensive documents, just wondered whether there was anything else similar or if people use these?
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Rank: Forum user
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I've used PAS79 and found it very useful. Saying that, if you can't afford it, I'm sure you can also prepare a good FRA with help from other free available guidance.
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Rank: Super forum user
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PAS 79 is a useful document and provides the reader with a reasonable understanding of fire risk assessment, the proforma FRA can also prove useful. However, I think that this document is over priced and similar information is freely available within other various community guidance documents. If you are carrying out a number of fire risk assessments or that is your main area of work, then it is worth a read.
PAS 911 is another kettle of fish. It is a useful tool for use by professional fire engineers and or a design team, enabling a “General” or “Initial” fire strategy to be developed. Subsequent fire strategies or more detailed design usually take into account BS 9999 and BS 7974 etc.
PAS 911 employs the use of a spider type diagram comprising of 8 fire strategy factors, each on a separate node. The remainder of the web diagram comprises of 5 orbital strands emanating from a central point. This diagram allows the study team to consider the criticality of any node under consideration. scores are from 0 being the least critical to 5 the most critical.
Following the completion of scoring/evaluation, the various dots at each node are joined together and the area within the pattern provides an indication of resources necessary to realise the strategy proposed. i.e large foot print equates to a possible resource hungry strategy etc.
The concentration of the completed pattern is also useful as it provides a reasonable indication of the type of fire strategy proposed for the development.
i.e. weighting towards the upper quadrant will result in a strategy having a greater dependence on fire safety management, lower quadrant on active fire protection, right hand side on suppression and left hand side on passive fire protection.
Again, this document would be of benefit if your activities are predicated towards design but I do not think it would be a benefit in terms of FRA but that’s just my opinion..
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks for your replies; Bleve, thanks for your post, most useful about 911.
On a similar theme, do you know whether, during the design stage of a building (sleeping accommoedation), the designer should be using either BS9999 or PAS 911 to justify the fire strategy and escape strategy or are there any other documents they may use?
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Rank: Super forum user
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PAS 911 could have been used at very early design stage but personally I would only consider it in this case for a substantial/large/complex development. i.e. for modest/simple development I would have gone straight to BS 9999.
WRT escape, I would suggest that the design team should be looking at the use of BS 9999 Section 5.0
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Rank: Forum user
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When you say large / complex development, what about 10 - 12 storey sleeping accommodation?
Either way, should one or the other be referenced to regarding escape and the fire strategy, e.g. delayed evacuation etc?
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Rank: Super forum user
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It would be sifficient to make reference to ADB, BS 9999, PAS 911 do not have to be referenced, but the fire safety strategy including evacuation philosophy should have been considered and set out at detailed design stage.
IMO, it is good practice and sensible to use BS 9999, PAS 911 and BS 7974 in relation to this matter.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just a comment:
All things still depend on the client; As all such guides etc still require the client to accept proposals and unless the HSE etc get on with enforcing/educating clients we will stay in the position of clients having a very a narrow view
As an example a reasonable proposal was put by a designer to a client at a recent build that I was involved in and the client rejected it - to date the rejection has cost the client much more £ in reality because of operational problems but the client does not appear bothered as his finance director has moved £ from other budgets to offset the situation and he can lay off more against tax so the client is not bothered! Perhaps its time that finance people are also be looked at by the enforcers as its they who clients listen to above all others
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Rank: Forum user
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Rank: Super forum user
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Building regs Approved Document B.
The structural design MUST take this document into account. PAS 911 would allow the design team to identify a resource effective fire strategy, BS 9999 & 7974 would allow them to apply flexibility to their design and to enable detailed design.
What ever method the fire strategy and evacuation philosophy should be set out in a readily understandable document prior to construction.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks Bleve, going to send you a PM if you don't mind
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just to go back to the original question i use PAS 79 as I've found there is very little that the document does not cover, where i have looked at documents from other sources and found a lot of the questions are missing that are in PAS 79 to i believ it's a very comprehensive document.
i think it's important that you use the document as it was intended that is not to use it as a tick sheet but giving detailed reasoning's behind your recommendation in the areas provided within the document. i've also modified the document slightly so include areas which i feel are important or need a separate section to ensure all the detail is within the document. this includes a section on enforcement or vists by fire authority's a section to list the fire hazards on the premises.
Although the document might appear to be expensive you need to look at what is contained in the document and how long it would be to create such a document from scratch as it does look like a professional document once produced or at least 100 times better than what i could do from scratch.
also you then own the copyright to use the document with others of the internet it might be a question of who owns the copyright and whether permission has been given for it's use to anyone who wants to download it.
Phil
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