I have been speaking to a friend who works at a petrol station forecourt, quite a large company, who asked recently why there is no first aiders on the site.

Apparantly, the company refuse to have people first aid trained as they do not want the company to be sued in the event of any problems resulting from aid given. There are first aid kits on site!!

Surely they are required to have a number of staff trained? if for nothing else other members of staff?

Given the small number of staff likely top be present at any time, there is no need for a first aider on site. See http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg214.pdf

The HSE says "Under the Regulations, you have no legal duty to provide first aid for non-employees, but HSE strongly recommends that you include them in your first-aid provision."

Whether or not petrol stations provide first aid ends up as a business decision. I could see problems in training staff as first aiders to treat members of the public. Some pretty strange people turn up at petrol stations, especially through the night. I would not want my staff to be tricked into coming out from behind the counter to give someone first aid.

Note the "apparently* in the post.
I enforced at PFS for many years. I would not consider trained first aiders to be necessary. The risk is minimal.
What was usually lacking was effective training in what to do in an emergency (spillage or fire).

ron, the "apparantly" was not necassery in my post(sorry!!) The managers of the stores have all been told that the reason for not training is to prevent being sued, i would of thought that as there can be 5to6 people at work at any one time that a first aider would be required on site? what is the number of staff that requires trained people on site? and what would constitute an appointed person? do they need any training?

thanks Phil, The garage is uk based but the owners are an american company, i guess they will keep it there way until somebody working for them is injured and sues due to no first aid being given!

glad i do not work in petrol!

Strange thread!

It is quite clear that it is subject to risk assessment and the low risk small employee number in this case do not require a first aider being present. The duty would be covered by the issue of a first aid kit to the petrol branch.

Where does being sued come into it? On what grounds? Because they didn't have a first aider? Imagine the ramifications if every small business had to have a first aider.

Let's get real shall we and look at the practicalities - especially in the current climate?

And you said:



You are glad you do not work in petrol. This is based solely on them not having first aiders in a low risk environment, yet you are an IOSH member!

Captian Scarlet: PFS = Petrol Filling Station. Apologies for the use of the TLA.
p.s. I trust that Destiny and the rest of the Angels are all fit and well.

mattyturton, as an LA enforcement officer, I inspect petrol stations. Mostly they employ a small number of staff and therefore do not have a trained first aider. A competent person is usually sufficient in this type of work environment. In 6 years in this job, I've never received a RIDDOR report for an accident sustained in a petrol station, therefore it is my perception that the accident rate is very low.

If it is true that the "management" are saying that they do not want to be sued if a trained employee provides first aid to a customer/member of the public, then they could quite easily instruct the first aider not to provide first aid to anyone but employees. Remember, the regulations in place at the First Aid at Work Regulations - which place no duty on employers to provide first aid to anyone but their employees. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l74.htm

From the HSE guidance leaflet: "The Health and Safety (First-Aid) Regulations 1981 require you to provide adequate and appropriate first-aid equipment, facilities and people so your employees can be given immediate help if they are injured or taken ill at work.
What is ‘adequate and appropriate’ will depend on the circumstances in your workplace and you should assess what your first-aid needs are (see Q3).
The minimum first-aid provision on any work site is:
■a suitably stocked first-aid box (see Q4);
■an appointed person to take charge of first-aid arrangements (see Q5);
■information for employees about first-aid arrangements (see Q8)."

Hope that's helpful to you.

I was going to also say read ACOP L74 - page 27 provides a table that answers the question.

As a St John Ambulance first aider, I always encourage first aid (it really does save lives) but in this situation I agree with what has been said, appointed person and emergecny plans will probably suffice. (Subject to risk assessment of course :) )

I think this thread was answered with the first reply, not sure why I am posting :)

My most recent recent round of first aid training (UKOA) - I was told "If you see a white middle age male lying on the ground - leave well alone". Now work that one out. Delivered by a fully qualified first aid instructor for the offshore industry. Hmmmm.
Although saying that I am sure anyone with a modicum of sense and first aid gumption would step in regardless, or at least take charge of a situation.

I'm presuming the instructor meant in the street rather than in the workplace? Probably inferring that alcohol or drugs could be involved I imagine. Still not a good reason to encourage people not to do something to help out their fellow man!

Twink... Yes he did mean the street, but was refering to heart conditions.

Is it just me or are we being driven to carryout a risk assessment on everything that takes place? The MHASAW Regs say that all significant risks are assessed not ALL risks. A petrol station is covered by legislation as to smoking etc and are to my thoughts open areas with quite some ventilation so the risk of fire is covered by no smoking etc. They are then just like any other sales outlet. There is no legal requirement to have first aid cover for public places such as petrol stations or supermarkets to cover members of the public as this would cost the company a lot of money and would become not reasonably practicable under the HASAW Act. If a proprioter wishes to provide then that is his choice not a legal requirement. In this case the company are quite correct it is not needed.

It doesn't surprise me. In my experience first aid instructors are amongst the worst when it comes to myths about being sued. And they often promote insurance so 'you're covered'.

This thread was answered in the first replies; why the facination with FA? Better than working I suppose.

Captain Scarlett- "... If you get the FA wrong, there is a chance he could sue if he lived to tell the tale. An odd but true case. "

Could you provide a reference to a (UK) civil liability case to support this assertion that it is a true case please as I was under the impression that if someone was dying from a heart attack there is very little a first aider could do to make a the situation worse (other than applying the coup de grace!).

It would also infer that for the person to survive, the FA must have done something right.

Thanks

FHS:
Again, ask the instructor at NUTEC Teeside. Can't recall his name...Surviving is one thing, surviving with damages is another. Not discussing the suing at all, I guess there must be some iota of truth somewhere for a qualified instructor to say this.

Refer to the publication, "The legal status of those who attempt resuscitation" from The Resustication Council, UK at:-

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm

".......although there have been a few cases in the United Kingdom where a claim has been brought against a “rescuer”, there have been no reported cases at all where a casualty has successfully sued someone who came to his aid in an emergency"

Some useful guidance here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/firstaid.htm