Rank: Super forum user
|
I know about method statements and how they should be put together, basic information, but would like some input on what information an electrical contractor should include in theirs.
I'm looking for the "meat" that goes on the bones but not necessarily the fine detail, just some guidance on what the PC should expect to see.
The work is shop fitting including strip out, and all works involved with starting up a new unit from scratch.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
ChrisBurns wrote:I know about method statements and how they should be put together, basic information, but would like some input on what information an electrical contractor should include in theirs.
I'm looking for the "meat" that goes on the bones but not necessarily the fine detail, just some guidance on what the PC should expect to see.
The work is shop fitting including strip out, and all works involved with starting up a new unit from scratch. Not to sure if this is relevant to UK industries but most method statements I put together for our clients is based on the HSE-MS model the industry uses: 1- Leadership-Commitment: What commitment to HSE does the contractor have, how many management visits to the site, what are the core values blah blah blah. 2- Policies - Objectives: A copy of the policy, and the contactors strategic objectives and YTD goals, and how these goals will influence the work on your site. 3- Resource Management: How will resources be managed at site / communications / training & competency of staff. and so on and so forth. This pretty much helps you understand the contractor performance, and helps the contractor set out a good plan of action. If you are not implementing an HSE-MS model, sorry don't know.
|
|
|
|
Rank: New forum user
|
Make suitable and sufficient assessments of the risks to health and safety of your employees and persons not in your employment arising out of work on electrical systems. These risk assessment should then enable you to :-
a. Produce and disseminate a policy detailing how your company will control live testing.
b. Produce and disseminate a policy detailing how your company will control safe isolations of electrical installations.
c. Produce and disseminate a policy detailing how your company will issue and maintain equipment that conforms to GS38 “Electrical test equipment for use by electricians”.
d. Produce and disseminate a policy detailing how your company will control the testing and energisation of circuits that are to be left permanently energised.
2. The above risk assessments and policies should be recorded in writing or by other means (e.g. electronically, providing they are retrievable and accessible to those who require them).
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Thanks captain scarlet and wsd.
I'm now wondering about the "requirement" for such information to be produced. Does training electrical contractors cover such a requirement to provide method statements and if so in what detail?
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
When I reviewed method statements, I looked for one main thing.
It wasn't fine detail on the work being carried out.
Rather, I was looking for how it would be done safely.
So the things I looked for;- a rigorous risk assessment of the works - how the risks identified are managed - who is responsible for ensuring the controls are in place and operating
From the above, you get a pretty good idea of whether the Contractor takes MSs seriously
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
To give a different perspective, I must have a very different experience of method statements from those above. An MS has had nothing to do with Policy in my experience and it has not just been a safety document. An MS has primarily been a storyboard or a workplan so to speak and an inventory 0or equipment and materials, incorporating H&S issues.
For me a method statment has always been a combination of:
- what the job is (installation of wiring etc) - what materials are being used (perhaps wiring specs etc) - what equipment is being used (perhaps ladders, hand tools etc) - what equipment safety checks are carried out (perhaps PAT or LOLER etc) - what qualifications staff have (electrical, PASMA, et) - what safety equiment is being used Then - a blow by blow account of the works in time sequence incorporating the above (arrive, set up safety area using blah de blah , drill hole and insert such and such spec wiring using tower scaffold erected by competent person on site........)
RA's, qualifications, certificates etc will then be attached to the MS (but not usually Policy)
There is no regulatory guidance on how an MS should look or what it should contain (there is no regulatory requirement to provide an MS). That is the reasopn why there is always such a problem advising on what an 'accpetable' MS is. It's all personal opinion.
I have frequently advised clients (whose MS's have been refuised) to ask the PC or other for an example of what they are looking for and then to template that.
It's one of the things I think the HSE needs to address like they have with RA's, a template of an MS.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Thanks Clairel, am I right in saying you have been a HSE inspector?
There are quite varied thoughts on this subject, your point about there being no requirement is another issue.
There is a requirement for a safe system of work and I always link that and the MS together if/when asked.
What is a method statement if it isn't a safe system of work?
Your description of the type of content agrees with my thoughts.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
What I mean by no legal requirement is that, unlike the specific requirement for a document called a risk assessment, there is no specific requirement for a document called a method statement.
There is obviously a requirement to provide safe systems of work etc but in my expereince an MS is more than just a safe system of work, it incorporates other things such as materials being used from a technical point of view. A safe system of work wouild literally just relate to doing a job safely. I believe that an MS is more than that.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Clairel wrote:To give a different perspective, I must have a very different experience of method statements from those above. An MS has had nothing to do with Policy in my experience and it has not just been a safety document. An MS has primarily been a storyboard or a workplan so to speak and an inventory 0or equipment and materials, incorporating H&S issues.
For me a method statment has always been a combination of:
- what the job is (installation of wiring etc) - what materials are being used (perhaps wiring specs etc) - what equipment is being used (perhaps ladders, hand tools etc) - what equipment safety checks are carried out (perhaps PAT or LOLER etc) - what qualifications staff have (electrical, PASMA, et) - what safety equiment is being used Then - a blow by blow account of the works in time sequence incorporating the above (arrive, set up safety area using blah de blah , drill hole and insert such and such spec wiring using tower scaffold erected by competent person on site........)
RA's, qualifications, certificates etc will then be attached to the MS (but not usually Policy)
There is no regulatory guidance on how an MS should look or what it should contain (there is no regulatory requirement to provide an MS). That is the reasopn why there is always such a problem advising on what an 'accpetable' MS is. It's all personal opinion.
I have frequently advised clients (whose MS's have been refuised) to ask the PC or other for an example of what they are looking for and then to template that.
It's one of the things I think the HSE needs to address like they have with RA's, a template of an MS. Clairel: Alas we verbally joust once more. The format of the method statement follows the same heading as the HSE-MS, this allows the client to see how their HSE-MS fits in with the contractors. If the client wants a method statement, then in similar fashion to "the plastic box full of stuff", he should get a one. Each one of your bullet points above will fit snuggly into an HSE-MS category, and as HSG-65 Policy being numero uno. Safety checks - implementation and monitoring Qualifications - competency / resource management Equipment - Resource management As I started off though, I did say not too sure if this was relevant to the UK. To me this format tells me straight away if any of our contractors fit in with our HSE-MS without the need for bridging or gap analysis, as it does with our clients.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
What is the HSE-MS you keep refering to?
I believe you use the term HSE differently to me.
In the UK the term HSE is the Health and Safety Executive. Although I understand that HSE can also be used to refer to Health Safety and Environment. But when you use it in the context that you have it implies that the HSE have a template for a MS and they don't.
I have not come across Policy being used as part of a MS.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Clairel wrote:What is the HSE-MS you keep refering to?
I believe you use the term HSE differently to me.
I have not come across Policy being used as part of a MS. Clairel: When I refer to HSE it will always mean health, safety & environment. As you know the management system that the company decides to operate with is basically a map of their HSE documentation. So if a company I was representing was operating to HSG-65, I would prefer our subcontractors to also, in fact it would be a contractual clause, thus, our HSE-MS would be laid out into the key elements ( Policy - Organising - Planning & Implementing - Measuring Performance - Performance Review - Auditing), to save time, and enable my company to assess the HSE capabilities of a sub contractor, or look at how they would plan a job, I would expect them to structure their "work plan" or "method statement" accordingly. The first part of their method plan would be their policy(s), then the organisation of the company, how the job would be organised, what levels of competency are within the organisation, followed by what plans they would put in place during the job and how they would implement said plans. I would expect to be able to read how the sub contractor would gauge and measure their performances, on the job, how and when they would submit their figures to us the client. The method statement would be a snapshot of the company and how their HSE-MS works to their and our advantage. As I opened up, this may not be relevant in UK, but every client our company works for expects this to be pin point accurate, and we will be held committed to said method statement, or never work for that customer again. You may think it just different or even absurd, but it makes a lot of sense to me and obviously our clients / subcontractors within the industry. With such practices throughout, everyone knows exactly where they stand. Thanks OGP!!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
For a start I think you need to be very clear that in the UK the term HSE is usually applied to the Health and Safety Executive. I know that you have been asked to consider that fact before as others have also become confused by your use of the term HSE.
In my expereince in the UK a method statement is a working document for employeess actually doing the job. It is job specific. It will be supplied to the client but it is primarily a working document. Therefore all the things that you talk about (Policy, monitoring, review etc) are not applicable to the method statement. Yes those things will be supplied to the client but not in the form of an method statement. They would be supplied as part of the tender.
This is why I want the HSE (Health and Safety Executive!) to supply a template for MS so that everyone understands what is required and sings from the same hymn sheet.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I'll try to find the ones I did for industrial machine control systems maintenance fault finding & commissioning which were OK'd by a major global blue chip automotive manuf and their Trade Union H&S reps. One of whom was subsequently one of my NEBOSH GC trainers!
I'll email it if i can find it.
BTW & read an MS as more of a technical document, however, this one was as generic as we felt we could get away with due to the diverse nature of the work and the competence of the guys. They were all specialists on the equipment, we were the manufacturer. Also individual jobs were dynamically risk assessed and the customers RA's done for each job too.
All the guys were fully trained on the kit mind. Paul
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Clairel wrote:For a start I think you need to be very clear that in the UK the term HSE is usually applied to the Health and Safety Executive. I know that you have been asked to consider that fact before as others have also become confused by your use of the term HSE.
In my expereince in the UK a method statement is a working document for employeess actually doing the job. It is job specific. It will be supplied to the client but it is primarily a working document. Therefore all the things that you talk about (Policy, monitoring, review etc) are not applicable to the method statement. Yes those things will be supplied to the client but not in the form of an method statement. They would be supplied as part of the tender.
This is why I want the HSE (Health and Safety Executive!) to supply a template for MS so that everyone understands what is required and sings from the same hymn sheet. Clairel: Quite odd that you replied comfortably to the post you refer to that quoted HSE, without any confusion, and never once got hung up with the acronym. Anyway, I am just on my around to see the HSE manager for TOTAL, and going to tell him that the method statement format he is looking for is not correct, then I guess my resignation letter will be next, you got any ideas on a format Claire? Tomatoes - Tomaydoes Have a jolly week end.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Captain Scarlet, I know you are trying to bait me and as tempting as it is to rise to it and tell you what I really think of you and your abilities - I wouldn't give you the pleasure of seeing my post deleted by the Mods.
You have a jolly hockey sticks weekend too!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
At the risk of getting it in the neck - could I blow the full time whistle? Or at least say 'ding ding' end of round one?
I think the majority of us accept that HSE in the UK stands for the Health and Safety Executive, and would suggest that there are occassions when using the same TLA to mean something different such as Health, Safety and Environment may not be helpful. Could I suggest using HS&E on those occassions?
As for method statement vs safe systems of work etc. They can and do often mean much the same thing to many people. Safe systems are mentioned in S2 although there is no definition in the act itself and I am unsure of any subsequent interpretation in case law.
I haven't looked at my principles book for a good while and don't have one here but as i recall:
a safe system is an instruction from management to workers on how to do a job safely
a method statement sets out the order in which things should be done to ensure safety (often used in demolition works)
They may well amount to much the same things in many circumstances, and indeed one may incorpoate the other, seamlessly, and without referring to either an MS or SSOW.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Phil Rose wrote:At the risk of getting it in the neck - could I blow the full time whistle? Or at least say 'ding ding' end of round one?
I think the majority of us accept that HSE in the UK stands for the Health and Safety Executive, and would suggest that there are occassions when using the same TLA to mean something different such as Health, Safety and Environment may not be helpful. Could I suggest using HS&E on those occassions?
As for method statement vs safe systems of work etc. They can and do often mean much the same thing to many people. Safe systems are mentioned in S2 although there is no definition in the act itself and I am unsure of any subsequent interpretation in case law.
I haven't looked at my principles book for a good while and don't have one here but as i recall:
a safe system is an instruction from management to workers on how to do a job safely
a method statement sets out the order in which things should be done to ensure safety (often used in demolition works)
They may well amount to much the same things in many circumstances, and indeed one may incorpoate the other, seamlessly, and without referring to either an MS or SSOW. Phil-R A method statement CAN be as I have desribed, I even got through my NVQ4 submitting the arguable format, anyway, an SSoW I believe is a work instruction, where the job is broken down into phases. Although some may say differently.....
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Clairel wrote:Captain Scarlet, I know you are trying to bait me and as tempting as it is to rise to it and tell you what I really think of you and your abilities - I wouldn't give you the pleasure of seeing my post deleted by the Mods.
You have a jolly hockey sticks weekend too! Clairel: How could I see it if it was deleted, and there is no need to get personal, I am a very sensitive character.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Captain Scarlet - perhaps read my post again. I don't think that I suggested otherwise! Did I? NOTHING in my post was intended to contradict ANYTHING that you have posted.
I was trying to calm the 'tit for tat' posts and make a couple of suggestions re SSOW and MS. An SSOW or MS can be whatever YOU want it to be. I did NOT suggest otherwise.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Phil Rose wrote:Captain Scarlet - perhaps read my post again. I don't think that I suggested otherwise! Did I? NOTHING in my post was intended to contradict ANYTHING that you have posted.
I was trying to calm the 'tit for tat' posts and make a couple of suggestions re SSOW and MS. An SSOW or MS can be whatever YOU want it to be. I did NOT suggest otherwise.
PhilR: My last post was not intended to be abbrasive against your last comments, I was finalising my point for other reader(s). I completely agree that a method statement can be whatever format preferred, as long as it explains clearly how one would intend to carry out the operation, safely, and how one would address the predominant and underlying risk with correct prevention and mitigation control. As far as tit for tat, well personality clash there, and yes it was a long drawn out waste of time. Oh and to boot I have just learned Germany have bashed in the 4th goal....Oh joy! Apologies again phil... And to Clairel, but you have to admit..........just kidding.
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.