Rank: New forum user
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Should all new fire extinguishers be red?
I understand that BS EN3 requires 95% of the body of the extinguisher to be red with a band of colour showing the contents (cream, blue, black etc).
But you can also buy chrome/stainless steel extinguishers which are CE marked but obviously do not fully comply with the British standard. Are these allowable? I can't see any legislation that says you can't buy new chrome extinguishers.
Thanks.
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Rank: Guest
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Yes they are allowable they just won't have the British standard kite mark
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Rank: Super forum user
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The CE mark is provided only in relation to the Pressure Equipment Directive.
Strictly speaking the chrome etc fire extinguisher does not comply fully with the European or British National Standard BS EN 3.
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Rank: Super forum user
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When I was a fire service fire safety inspecting officer, I caused a right old stir by 'allowing' a large posh boutique to paint all of their extinguishers white (to match their hideous interior decor). My colleagues were not impressed (especially the older dinosaurs) and my boss took some considerable persuading.
I argued that the shop's FRA had considered the risks and received a written statement from the extinguisher suppliers that although the units were no longer BS EN standard in terms of their colour, they were happy to continue to maintain and certificate them. The shop's FRA even produced evidence (a letter) that the paint used was similar to that used by the manufacturer - albeit is was accepted that the white paint would be applied by hand (and not sprayed as the original). All labels would remain
Taking into account that the Emergency Plan was for staff only to use the extinguishers and they would all receive additional training to take into account the non standard paint job, I was happy with their scheme as the firefighting equipment, procedures & maintenance arrangements were all suitable and sufficient - so where's the harm?
So it can be done if you can state your rationale in the FRA and have a flexible, forward thinking and particularly handsome local F/S Officer
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Rank: Super forum user
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Agreed but in the unlikely event of loss, damage or injury even remotely in connection with a deviation from the national or european standard, then the RP will be responsible. This has particular relevance within the ROI and case law
Dunne vs Honeywell and Virginia Milk Ltd
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bleve
Interesting to hear there is case law about this. I have carried out a basic Google search but found nothing about this case. Do you know how I can access any details , or indeed can you provide a brief summary?
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi messyshaw
You can find this reference to Dunne v Honeywell Control Systems Ltd and Virginia Milk Products Ltd mentioned by bleve at the following link:
http://www.dcu.ie/dcubs/research_papers/no25.html
Goto sub-heading
The relevance of standards and guidance
See 4th para
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Rank: Super forum user
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So - standards and guidance are relevant and should be used to guide the way through the health and safety minefield.
I remember a recent fire risk assessment thread where someone said that the guidance document was only a guide?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Isn't the Dunne case more to do with perception of contributory negligence?
“The plaintiff was not taking sufficient care for his own safety, not through any positive act on his part, but because the danger did not occur to him.” according to the trial judge Barron J.
It is mentioned on http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2000/208.html
Bit of a stretch or am I missing something? I will be happy to be put right, but I was not previously aware that this had been quoted as case law in this way. How does a bloke hurting his foot when falling off a ladder while carrying a case rather than having a satchel over his shoulder become case law for fire extinguishers not being red? I get the generalities, but specifically? Again, please put me right on this. Early Sunday morning, brain is mush, being forced by child to watch children's telly.
Martin
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Rank: Super forum user
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bleve wrote:Agreed but in the unlikely event of loss, damage or injury even remotely in connection with a deviation from the national or european standard, then the RP will be responsible. This has particular relevance within the ROI and case law
Dunne vs Honeywell and Virginia Milk Ltd
Martin
VMP were deemed liable due to a deviation from the 1985 british standard applicable to vertical ladders , never mind the fact that the ladder was fabricated and installed many years prior to that standard.
The deviation from a national or eu standard has been a principal consideration in the courts for many years and as offered by the opinion of Ray Byrne (Barrister) this is of importance by way of case law in the ROI.
As stated IMO in the unlikey event of loss or damage remotely attributable to the deviation from en 3 , then this may be considered by the courts.
Chris,
A guide is an entirely different thing from a standard, a guide in the context of CLG has no legal standing
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Rank: Super forum user
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In addition, how far can we deviate from a particular standard?
What is the difference from deviating from colour versus say force required for or type of actuation, etc?
I would think it unlikely for the absence of red paint to result in loss, injury or damage but it could happen. If the deviation were found to contribute to the loss, then liability must be apportioned.
Where do we stop, purple, yellow, black manual call points, multicoloured signage????
At the end of the day EN 3 is a EU Harmonised Standard requiring all national standards to be withdrawn. The EU standard is there to promote free trade throughout the EU and to enable a commonality throughout each member state. A person should be in a position to recognise a fire extinguisher type/class from a distance regardless of geopgraphic position.
If we permit inconsistency and deviation confusion will prevail.
So know are we saying some deviations are permitted but others are not?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Fair enough Bleve, I had not seen the case before and when I looked at it I missed the main point. But in relation to your last post, ther is nothing else in most buildings that are normally the same size and shape as a fire extinguisher. Would be difficult to mistake a fire extinguisher as anything else due to the shape and dimensions. I understand that uniformity is required morally and legally, but would you realistically not know that a fire extinguisher is just that, simply because it is silver rather than red?
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Rank: Super forum user
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I agree Martin, that is why I said in the unlikely event of loss etc
:)
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