Try youtube.

Having seen this clip which shows someone in the process of being burnt to death, I strongly feel that any member wishing to show this for training purposes should refer to Code Point 1 of the IOSH Code of Conduct.

This states …………….. “their practice should be performed according to the highest standards and ethical principles, maintaining respect for human dignity”…………………

Agree with both Gordon and Arran - the key is to know your audience. This video (and similar) are very traumatic personally speaking it added to ptsd for me.

No problem with showing them but it should be done very carefully. They were not made / created for educational purposes but certainly serve to reinforce – not frighten or create a false sense of risk proportion.

There is also a risk that they are presented with over sincerity (because of true compassion), but resulting in a condescending preamble.

I use them - just sharing thoughts

Steve

Ethics is a very complex subject and if professionally challenged, how can you demonstrate that by showing the trauma of someone dying with this video, is performing your practice “according to the highest standards and ethical principles, maintaining respect for human dignity”.

Interestingly in the last 25 years, training methods have moved on and this film is no longer available commercially.

Ciaran,

You certainly have not caused any offence. Having come into safety via an occupational health nursing route, ethics formed a significant part of my training and still remains firmly on my radar (in OH&S practice) today.

If anything, I have also been slightly naughty by hijacking this thread!

I was at home on the day of this fire and remember seeing the live television footage as it happened. I was quick enough to set my video machine to record it, and I took that recording into the fire station the next Monday and showed it to the watch members.

You can just imagine the discussion that followed, by then the full story had unfolded and the number of fatalities just about known.

We had a similar wooden stand in our station area, a rugby union club. We were instructed to visit that ground and carry out a fire risk assessment on that stand.

Fire risk assessments all those years ago :-)

I used this video as a very effcetive training tool in the years immediately after the incident, primarily to show the speed of development rather than the horror of death in a fire. I usually stopped it before the end.
I was using it in a time when many would have seen the video before or had actually watched the transmission on national TV and the incident was still very much in people's immediate memory. Experience proved that made it more acceptable to show such scenes again as part of training.

However, I completely agree with others who say that it is out of time. Simple before and after pictures of fire damaged buildings and a quiz to guess how long the fire took to cause the immediate damage get the point over just as forcibly in my view. Or you can use some of the videos showing room fires and spread, no people hurt just property damage. They always have the time running and can be used to demonstrate the speed and intensity that a fire can reach in a very short time. (Sorry I cant recall the link just now but perhaps others will have them to hand)

P48

Arran,

The video clip was used as part of my "training" during the NEBOSH construction cert.
The training provider are a very reputable organisation, and used in the right context i don't see it has an "ethical" issue.

Steve

Riskybuizz

How does a clip which clearly shows someone dying as a result of the fire show respect for human dignity?

Even the BBC for their own ethical reasons no longer show this clip!

Please go and read the exact wording in Code Point 1.

Fully agree with you Martin.

I think Hazel Harvey (Our brilliant Director of Professional Affairs) should give a ruling on this. Then we have a definitive answer instead of an interpretation of Code point 1.

is the link for the Sunbeam fire.

Phil, as Chair of the Ireland Fire Risk Management Section, I would like to know if either I, personally or one of my members could face sanction from IOSH for the use of this video clip.

Martin,

Knowing you audience is a very old argument and does not explore the ethical issue of dignity, as for you argument that “There is no dignity in death”, sorry but I thought that was one of the reasons that the Hospice movement was set up for.

As far as I am aware, the original clip was never originally intended to be a training aid, so in the meantime has anyone using this clip (for training purposes) even approached and sought the views (or consent) of the Bradford city supporters trust and the families concerned over this matter?

Arran

you are clearly not happy in using this clip of the Bradford fire so that is your choice where others believe there is benefit in showing the clip which re-enforces a fire safety message. As to whether iosh can or will past judgement on such a clip i don't think is likely but of course i welcome there views but does every video clip used for training purposes or documentary need to be passed by IOSH.i believe it is down to the individual trainer or organisation to decide whether to use certain video clips as being suitable for the audience and what message they are trying to get across by using that video clip.

So long as that decision is taken with justification then that is all we can except from any business or person. as i have said above i don't feel the Bradford fire to particular relevant today as many changes have happened to fire safety so hopefully another incident should ever happen like this again . when i have showed the Bradford fire i don't show it in it's entirety as i feel this may be to much or upset some clients but i do believe it shows how fire can rapidly spread and how due to lack of understanding of fire and poor management where responsible for the loss of life.

However i think that fire wardens marshalls should have understanding that there could be consequences of a fire starting and by failing to take reasonable steps can result in the loss of life. at the end of any training when i have shown the video clients have said they found the fire shocking but valuable to have watched it and they found the have a better understanding of the consequences of fire can have.

i think i will now look to more recent fires like New Look as they are more recent and trainees are more likely to relate to as it was a store that everyone uses day in day out without thinking of the possible consequences. also with the recent prosecution and fine and it came under the RRFSO shows that there are prosecutions taking place and what on the face of it might have seemed a large organisation they failed in some of the most basic fire safety measures that i would expect a fire warden having completed a training course to have at least identified an issue or concern and not to have ignored it.

i will end by saying if you wish not to use the video footage then i can respect your views why and may be others also need to consider your comments but i believe there is some value in showing the video clip and it's down to the individuals to decide and so long as they make trainees aware before the video clip is shown then i believe you have been as fair as possible to all concerned.

Phil

Sorry Arran, this is not about medical ethics where dignity is rightly high on the agenda, and the victims of the Bradford fire, to nearly all who see the images, are anonymous so there is no issue there.

This is about fire training to me. Nothing about people dying in hospices, with or without dignity. People die all the time, in major disasters, some of which are caught on camera, but not all instances are used in training clips, as nearly all instances are not relevant.

I recieved initial firearm awareness training in I think 1993 from Sandy Kelly, the former North Yorkshire Police Officer who was shot by the IRA. He survived: the Special Constable in the passenger seat, Glenn Goodman, was shot and did not survive. No dignity in how it happened, but any concerns regarding the ethical dignity of describing the death of another human being paled against the operational training offered by first hand knowledge of someone who had been in that situation, and who could describe their feelings during and after the event. Not everyone can get speakers who were involved in a particular event, so watching a clip of it happening live would be the next best thing, which is what the Bradford clip is.
I am sure that the effectiveness of the training was enhanced by the instructor's involvement, and I am also sure that showing what can happen when disaster strikes is sometimes useful with the original caveats regarding the audience etc.

And most of those who spoke after the service(Bishop of York, local MP etc) commemorating the disaster said something along the lines that no-one should forget the fire and its impact locally and nationally. They want people to be told about it.

As we are on the subject of fire training and football,I wonder does any training work. At present I am trying to encourage the owners of a large stadium to make their place safe. There are up to 30 wheelchair users forced to exit a stadium by an ordinary lift which takes one wheelchair user. Management will not come up with a suitable plan, or indeed any plan to address the emergency evacuation procedures. It appears to show a failure by management, by fire authorities, by planners and other parties. While due to the structure. fires might not occur there, lots of emergencies could occur. My apologies for changing this tread. Luckly the media have just taken an intrest in it. Anyone have any views?

I guess a new tread would be more useful.
The premises is in Ireland. Used possible 12 times a year, crowds in excess of 30,000.
I know they should not use an ordinary lift. The fire authority are aware of the problem, but allowed the stadium to be used for 2 large matches, since they were contacted. My view is the stadium should not have been used. I was suprised that the fire authority allowed the matches proceed, and did not stop the match.
I dont know what the premises has in place. All I know is that they are moaning at the loss of revenue due to the loss of some seats.

seamusosullivan
HSG154 "Managing crowds safely" is also a good starting point.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg154.pdf

Hi Phil.
I might be mistaken but the fire authority in Ireland does not have the lawful power to stop individuals entering the stadium for an event, perhaps yes during an emergency. The people with disablities would have purchased their ticket like everyone else. I was asked for my opinion by a concerned patron, who was disappointed after the expenditure of a lot of money, that this was an issue which was overlooked. I fully agree it must be resolved, when it will be resolved depends on a number of things.It should have been considered when the plans were drawn up. I understand management were aware of the concerns about several months before it reopened. I am aware of the equivalent of the DDA regs here, in Ireland, and we also have a written Constitution. So there is lots to keep me busy. The safety rep for the stadium/organisation may even use this forum. :-)

I will see if I can pull the Fire cert application to glean further information