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The company I work for decided to carryout routine maintenace work during nightshift and as it is quite a large building height wise inside we decided to bring in the use of mobile platforms. Basicall we were changing lightbulbs(large) but we were up approx 25 -35 feet.
When I carried out my risk assessment I asked whether the company should supply safety harness , but my working colleauges stated that they did not wish to wear any harness(s) as if they fell out of the mobile platform there was a greater chance that their weight would then pull the mobile platform over and thus they reckon that the wearing of harness(s) is much more dangerous.
I contacted the safety rep but he was unsure.
I asked the person who rents out the equipment who are a "Bona Fide" large company and he stated that in general they never put out harnesses . I have always thought if you are working at height then you should have some form of fall restraint but I can see both points.
Any points / suggestions would be most welcolme.
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By mobile platforms, could you clarify if it is a scissor lift type that your colleagues are using or the cherry picker type as there is no requirement to wear a harness in a scissor lift as they just go up and down once you have manoeuvered them into position, unless your R/A indicates otherwise.
However, if they are using the cherry picker type, this has the potential to slew round quickly forcing the person in the opposite direction. A harness is required in this instance with a restraint lanyard, to avoid the person reaching a position where he could fall out of the platform.
I'd be a bit concerned if your workers were using a cherry picker and THEY were deciding what controls to put in place.
It might also pay to read the manufacturers instruction manual for the platform.
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Hi Frank, could you clarify what you mean by the operators deciding what controls to put in place? Surely if they are trained and competent thay can do their own risk assessment?
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Chris - I'm sure Frank will be along to answer for himself but to my mind, allowing them to devise their own SSOW and elect to avoid using certain controls will put you on the wrong side of the law - see General Cleaning Contractors v Christmas (1952)
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Looks like we're in for a good debate now -
Stevie, thanks for that, I just had a look and see the window cleaner was standing on a window ledge, what's that got to do with operating from inside a cage even if it is a cherry picker?
Rider question regarding the employer - what if it is the employer who is operating inside the cage at height, (self employed), can he do the ssow?
I do see your point about avoiding certain controls, this should not be accepted at all if those controls are recommended as good practice or required by regulation.
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ChrisBurns wrote:
Stevie, thanks for that, I just had a look and see the window cleaner was standing on a window ledge, what's that got to do with operating from inside a cage even if it is a cherry picker?
Everything to do with it. In the Christmas case the employee devised their own system of work (standing on the ledge). The courts judgement is quoted here - http://www.swarb.co.uk/lisc/HltSf19301959.php (about 2/3rds down). It is the employers duty to devise the ssow, not leave it to the employee. "It is, in my opinion, for that very reason that the common law demands that employers should take reasonable care to lay down a reasonably safe system of work. Employers are not exempted from this duty by the fact that their men are experienced and might, if they were in the position of an employer, be able to lay down a reasonably safe system of work themselves."
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Stevie, it's all becoming clear, it was a window cleaner but the case is now case law and referred to in other cases where ssow is under discussion.
I especially like the following extract "The risk that sashes may unexpectedly close, as the sashes in this case appear to have done, may not happen very often, but when it does, if the workman is steadying himself by a handhold, his fall is almost certain".
The reason I like that is it could apply to any situation where you are trying assess a risk that is unlikely but could occur so you take it into account. Others involved in the assessment may say it won't happen because it rarely does. Am I rambling now?
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ChrisBurns wrote:Hi Frank, could you clarify what you mean by the operators deciding what controls to put in place? Surely if they are trained and competent thay can do their own risk assessment? They don't sound trained or competent Chris as they should know the W@H hierarchy - Avoid PREVENT Protect. By wearing a harness with a restraint lanyard, they are compliant with the regs (if it's a cherry picker). They also 'don't wish to wear a harness' as it is much more dangerous. Much more dangerous than falling 25 - 35 feet!!!! Next, they don't wish to wear gloves...or a safety helmet...or safety boots...etc etc Where's TD to let us know what type of platform it is. (I hope it's not an Aluminium Tower Platform)
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ChrisBurns wrote:Hi Frank, could you clarify what you mean by the operators deciding what controls to put in place? Surely if they are trained and competent thay can do their own risk assessment? Talk about hanging out the bait for debate Chris! Kinda agree with you here in that surely they must be at least CONSULTED when forming the risk assessment? Lets make one point clear here also... harnesses not required in scissor lifts PROVIDING they are only in motion when in the fully lowered position. Used for going up and down is no different a situation to working on a scafolding configuration. BTW hard hats are to protect people below not the people above in case they fall! Cheery pickers - booms etc must have fall restraint as the likelyhood of being 'tipped out' is seriously increased -v- Scissor lift.
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... and quickly while I'm on..... Fed up with finding fall ARREST lanyards being used in cherry pickers - booms - mewps. No good to anyone if you fall out before they can deploy!!!!! Use fall restraint lanyards on this equipment - stop people falling out in the first place... please!
I'm done.
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PJG wrote:... and quickly while I'm on..... Fed up with finding fall ARREST lanyards being used in cherry pickers - booms - mewps. No good to anyone if you fall out before they can deploy!!!!! Use fall restraint lanyards on this equipment - stop people falling out in the first place... please!
I'm done. For the ignorant among us, like myself, what's the difference? (arrest - restraint)
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ChrisBurns wrote:PJG wrote:... and quickly while I'm on..... Fed up with finding fall ARREST lanyards being used in cherry pickers - booms - mewps. No good to anyone if you fall out before they can deploy!!!!! Use fall restraint lanyards on this equipment - stop people falling out in the first place... please!
I'm done. For the ignorant among us, like myself, what's the difference? (arrest - restraint) This describes the difference perfectly, Chris. http://www.latchways.com/default.aspx?item=34(No affiliation with the company)
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Chris,
a fall "restraint" is a bit like a dog lead. The length of it must be such that it prevents you from reaching the edge or point of fall.
A fall "arrest" allows people to go past the point of fall and acts a bit like your car seat belt (in some types, others rely on stored material un-ravelling), or one of those extending dog leads that you can "halt" by pressing a button, (but auto on arrests?) These should be such a length that the fall is arrested before the chap hits the ground. There may be a "shock absorber" type function which takes time and distance to deploy which cushions the "stop". Stopping people from hitting the ground is obviously a good thing, but you also have to consider how you are then going to rescue the suspended person? Timescales are quite short before serious trauma can set in!
Also, just for interest, "arrest" systems should be subject to annual checks, whilst restraints are not,,,,not withstanding pre use, general inspections etc?
Go for a restraint that allows just enough movement around the cage but short enough to prevent the chap falling or climbing out.
Holmezy
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PJG wrote:
Kinda agree with you here in that surely they must be at least CONSULTED when forming the risk assessment?
Consulted, yes. Telling the chap doing the R/A they don't wish to wear them, no.
BTW hard hats are to protect people below not the people above in case they fall!
They are also to protect people from striking their head above too.
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Just for clarity...
PJG wrote.....Kinda agree with you here in that surely they must be at least CONSULTED when forming the risk assessment?
Frankie....Consulted, yes. Telling the chap doing the R/A they don't wish to wear them, no.
PJG wrote.....BTW hard hats are to protect people below not the people above in case they fall!
Frankie....They are also to protect people from striking their head above too.
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Colleagues I supsect the original poster is someone looking for some practical advice , not a "safety professional". Have a look at what we have given him/her!
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Hi All
What a good debate this is turning out to be, All MEWP have safety points on the platform itself to clip the lanyard onto to prevent employees from falling, If you have an audit system in place then the harness and landyard should be inspected every 12 months, and renewed every 5 years. If the SSOW is in palce, RA, PTW,etc MHSAWR 1999 3,4,5, Working at height regs Regulation 14
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i think this part of the original question is relevant.
"When I carried out my risk assessment I asked whether the company should supply safety harness , but my working colleagues stated that they did not wish to wear any harness(s) as if they fell out of the mobile platform there was a greater chance that their weight would then pull the mobile platform over and thus they reckon that the wearing of harness(s) is much more dangerous."
What about pulling the MEWP over? is this possible?
By the way thanks to holmezy, and Frank for that link, I've printed it off and the top man has now stopped falling :-)
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ChrisBurns wrote:
What about pulling the MEWP over? is this possible?
I used MEWP's for about 20 years in my previous life and never once saw anyone fall out of one, resulting in the MEWP overturning. There was an occasion in Hull about 10 years ago where there was a fault with the basket and the man was tipped out of it but fortunately, he was saved by the harness/lanyard he was wearing which was hooked on to the anchor point. He was safely lowered down to the ground (by the ground controls) without the machine overturning.
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TD wrote:The company I work for decided to carryout routine maintenace work during nightshift and as it is quite a large building height wise inside we decided to bring in the use of mobile platforms. Basicall we were changing lightbulbs(large) but we were up approx 25 -35 feet.
When I carried out my risk assessment I asked whether the company should supply safety harness , but my working colleauges stated that they did not wish to wear any harness(s) as if they fell out of the mobile platform there was a greater chance that their weight would then pull the mobile platform over and thus they reckon that the wearing of harness(s) is much more dangerous.
I contacted the safety rep but he was unsure.
I asked the person who rents out the equipment who are a "Bona Fide" large company and he stated that in general they never put out harnesses . I have always thought if you are working at height then you should have some form of fall restraint but I can see both points. IMO
Any points / suggestions would be most welcolme.
Hi TD, Back to your original question and concern. If you are using a cherry picker a harness must be used. the lanyard attached to it must be short enough to prevent operators climbing out of the cage or being ejected out if the equipment malfunctions or goes over pot holes or bumps causing the raised cage to throw operator out. the short lanyard means that at no time would the operator be hanging out of the equipment causing it to become unbalanced. Use of harness in a scissor lift is not as strict as in cherry pickers and should be based on RA but always bear in mind that harness and lanyard is NOT to restrain an operators fall as such but to prevent them from falling down in the first place.
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I can't help but feel that when he refers to a mobile platform possible he might be talking about a scaffold tower rather than MEWP.
Phil
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PhilBeale wrote:I can't help but feel that when he refers to a mobile platform possible he might be talking about a scaffold tower rather than MEWP.
Phil I did mention that on message 8, Phil but went off the idea when he said the equipment was rented out by a 'Bona Fide' large company. You would think the supplier would have said the guardrails act as collective fall prevention and as such there is no requirement for a harness.
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A couple of points relevant to various responses on this topic.
Can building steelwork not be used as anchor point? rather than the platform if concerned about stability.
Certainly agree that employer has the duty to devise and implement the SSW after risk assessment. and ensure employees follow instructions.
I would be more than slightly alarmed if it a scissor lift was being driven over potholes in a raised position with men in the platform !!! (as stated in one example). Surely raised positions are for working at height, and should be lowered for moving.
Agree that the platform supplier should be able to give full details regarding stability loading and risk of tipping if a fall happened etc.
You can't just throw a safety harness at someone and say "wear that" !! Equipment inspection by competent person, instruction and training, rescue plan etc etc. are all required.
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MEWPs are designed to be moved while in the extended position. If this was not recommended there would be some sort of cut out fitted, I assume?
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Thanks for all the information.
I appologise for not identifying what the mobile platform was...it was a scissor lift . I have noted the information given on cherry picker / harness.
Thanks again.
Since I have got your attention, may I ask another question.(sorry)
We have a small basket that is that gets attached to the forklift and is raised up and down by the forklift. (competent driver etc) One person goes up on it to paint the outside of the building or change the outside lights.The basket was purchased , has CE markings and all the relevant information on it.
It is visually checked during the maintenace schedule and is also checked prior to use and after use. It also has safety locking mechanism's attached so that it cannot remove itself from the forklift forks I have no issue with the basket itself .
Prior to any job being carried out a R/A is carried out and the area below corrdoned off etc. In the basket itself it has a bar from one side to another where you would clip on a harness. The wearing of a harness from the previous question has opened up a can of worms, I state during my R/A findings that they should be wearing a harness but I have noticed the guys dont wear a harness and I would just like to gain some guidance from more experience colleagues before I take my point to the managers, who I must state will back me if proven right.
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Can you confirm if the 'bar where you would clip on to' is a suitable anchor point, or merely an internal handrail? Seeing as your basket was purchased, have a look at the manufacturers instruction manual to see what they say/advise. If the basket is only being lifted/lowered from the one spot, it should be the same principles as the scissor lift. If it is a suitable anchor point, you may want to risk assess the possibility of the painters over reaching.
One other query. Does the basket have a door opening that locks or do they have to climb in?
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Some companies insist on staff wearing harness in both MEWP's and Cherry Pickers particuluarly in the construction and aviation industries
Ensure that the restraint is sufficiently short to prevent the operator climbing up on to the mid rail of the basket or being trown out in the event of a collapse
I know of one incident involving an accident where the operative suffered fatal injuries when he was thrown from a collapsing vehicle mounted boom hoist.
It is important to ensure that the anchor point installed in the MEWP or Cherry Picker by the Manufacturer is used and not the mid ot top rail.
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All working at height must be risk assessed as we all know! We must firstly eliminate the need to work at height or do all that is reasonably practicable to reduce the consequences of falls from height (fixed scaffold, portable access scaffold, mobile elevated work platforms).
MEWPS, (Mobile Elevated Work Platforms) a truly great piece of kit if used as the manufacturer as designed it to be used.
Firstly all persons need to be trained to operate the MEWP but as with all training it is always best practice to firstly to send newly trained operatives out on site with an experienced operators until they feel competent with a wide range of working environments ( Training & capabilities).
Safety Harness training is also required in addition to MEWP training but most MEWP training providers provide this course at an extra cost which as always worried me because you have to wear the harness during MEWP training but you can pass the MEWP course without being harness trained very odd ( Chicken & Egg)!
Also if you are using a MEWP & Wearing and using your safety harness to comply with all your training then you must have emergency procedures in place just in case you leave the platform unexpectedly as you may only be suspended by your harness for approx 15 mins before deep vein syndrome kicks in and you then have serious health issues (Rescue plans must be made).
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ChrisBurns wrote:MEWPs are designed to be moved while in the extended position. If this was not recommended there would be some sort of cut out fitted, I assume? MEWPS must never be used in the extended position except in an emergency then you must try to deploy the basket to ground level as soon as possible thats why there is no cut out switch Chris.
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der851 wrote:ChrisBurns wrote:MEWPs are designed to be moved while in the extended position. If this was not recommended there would be some sort of cut out fitted, I assume? MEWPS must never be moved in the extended position except in an emergency then you must try to deploy the basket to ground level as soon as possible thats why there is no cut out switch Chris.
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This is copied from the HSE publication The selection and management of mobile elevating work platforms HSE information sheet
"On completion of their familiarisation, the operator should know whether or not that particular MEWP is designed for the operator to travel on with the work platform in the elevated position and whether or not the controls are protected to prevent accidental contact with the operator’s torso".
So der851 could you please point me in the right direction to confirm your point about them never being moved in the extended position.
I am not trained in their use so rely on trained operators to be competent and use a MEWP according to its design.
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When i carried out my training on MEWP we where trained to operate and manoeuvre with them in the raised position but give consideration to the train or surface you are driving on. so if it's not level or likely to undulate then you would lower it to the ground then move the equipment. In the raised position they automatically reduce speed to crawl. If you could not operate them in the raised position then i don't see how they would be of any use if you had to constantly lower and raise them every time you wanted to move a couple of ft.
P.S. I'm not saying you should drive them any great distances in the raised position.
Phil
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PhilBeale wrote:When i carried out my training on MEWP we where trained to operate and manoeuvre with them in the raised position but give consideration to the train or surface you are driving on. so if it's not level or likely to undulate then you would lower it to the ground then move the equipment. In the raised position they automatically reduce speed to crawl. If you could not operate them in the raised position then i don't see how they would be of any use if you had to constantly lower and raise them every time you wanted to move a couple of ft.
P.S. I'm not saying you should drive them any great distances in the raised position.
Phil I concur.
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Apologies gents you can move MEWPS in the elevated position but they should not be driven any great distances in the elevated position as Phil as rightly stated, but when moving them elevated i always get someone to watch the manoeuvre ( Banksman) to move the traffiic cones, restrictions etc and then reposition them before the high level work continues.
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There is a new guidance document just been published for MEWP safety, links on the workplace safety blog: http://goodtogosafety.bl...n-safe-use-of-mewps.html for anyone interested (a little off topic from the original harness question but with so much talk of MEWPs in this thread thought it might be of interest).
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Thanks for all the advice .
Plenty of good pointers for the future.
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grim72 wrote:There is a new guidance document just been published for MEWP safety, links on the workplace safety blog: http://goodtogosafety.bl...n-safe-use-of-mewps.html for anyone interested (a little off topic from the original harness question but with so much talk of MEWPs in this thread thought it might be of interest). Don't know about being off topic I think this is exactly the type of info we ned to share. Thanks grim
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