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Zanshin67  
#1 Posted : 22 July 2010 09:51:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Zanshin67

Hi all a scenario only if an employee is trained and fully competent etc to action risk assessments, and fails to do so (despite a great deal of assistance) could this then become internal diciplinary? on the grounds of HSAW194 Employees duties eg failure to co-operate with the employer. just a thought. Whats your experience? Cheers
firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 22 July 2010 09:56:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I think you already know the answer, and its yes. More importantly the employee is likely to suffer some degree of harm, and potentially also their fellow employees. I would first speak to the employee and find out why not follow the safety guidance, consider the answer, review the risk assessment/s with the employee and if suitable and sufficient then go into discipline. Not to do so would leave the employer wide open.
Phillips20760  
#3 Posted : 22 July 2010 09:57:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Ooh dodgy. Only as a last resort if you ask me. You need to find out why he/she isn't doing them. Lack of time? Lack of resources? Lack of support? Lack of confidence / competence? Lack of mgt backing / priority? Apathy? Mutiny??!!! Carrot is better than the stick in getting people involved in H&S, (although a stick is often necessary in dangerous situations) and a disciplinary could do more harm than good. What ever reasons you come accross there may be more affective action than a disciplinary. I'd be interested to see other responses to this thread......
Jim Tassell  
#4 Posted : 22 July 2010 11:29:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jim Tassell

Have a care. The moment you think, let alone use the word "discipline", you need to be heading for your HR colleagues. You can do what you think are all the right things but still fall over on procedural grounds if it comes to a Tribunal. Get advice first, certainly make proper investigations as noted above and even check that your RA process/roll-out is as robust as you think it is. Don't, please, just go steaming in. We all know of the HSW Act duties but it's HR legislation and practice that could subvert you.
Ron Hunter  
#5 Posted : 22 July 2010 12:17:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Hmmm......"trained and fully competent". Do they share that view? Who established the standard? From a Devil's advocate perspective, the risks are exactly the same if I were to conduct an "incompetent" Risk Assessment. Not suggesting this is the case here, but all to often I see the 'you've had your day's training, you are now a competent Risk Assessor' approach. If as you say, the person has merited " a great deal of assistance" are they truly to be considered 'competent'? All that said, Risk Assessment is a collective exercise, not an individual one.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 22 July 2010 14:37:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

ron hunter wrote:
Hmmm......"trained and fully competent". Do they share that view? Who established the standard? From a Devil's advocate perspective, the risks are exactly the same if I were to conduct an "incompetent" Risk Assessment. Not suggesting this is the case here, but all to often I see the 'you've had your day's training, you are now a competent Risk Assessor' approach. If as you say, the person has merited " a great deal of assistance" are they truly to be considered 'competent'? All that said, Risk Assessment is a collective exercise, not an individual one.
Ron, surely it is the hazard that is the same, possibly the risks will be less if a suitable and sufficient risk assessment has been done? Don't know what an "incompetent risk assessment" is anyway.
Reed21854  
#7 Posted : 22 July 2010 15:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Reed21854

I think that you could certainly consider disciplinary action. You need to make sure you have documented everything that has happened up to this point e.g. training, tool box talks, previous incidents - investigations and outcomes, but if someone continues to have a blatant disregard for safety controls put in place to protect themselves and others then this would normally fall under "gross misconduct". Have a read of your Disciplinary Procedure but failure to observe health and safety rules is generally included as a gross misconduct offence.
Ron Hunter  
#8 Posted : 22 July 2010 16:50:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

We are talking (hypothetically of course) about the person tasked with initially conducting the Risk Assessment, and not those required to follow the SSoW developed from it? Some here seem to be answering different questions. Chris, perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm referring to the "risk" (in the everyday sense) to the hypothetical individual in terms of disciplinary for not doing the assessment at all, versus the potential comeback for doing it poorly. 'Incompetent Risk Assessment'? You mean you've never come across one? ;-)
jay  
#9 Posted : 22 July 2010 17:04:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

In law, it is the Employers duty to undertake the risk assessments. Obviously, it follows that there should be "arrangements" ( or procedures) in the Employers undertaking regarding the management arrangements for carrying out the risk assessments. If the arrangements/procedures are robust ( this will include a system having competent risk assessors--ie, training, experience, knowledge etc), then the employers internal procedures should be able to deal with this--depending upon the circumstances , the level of misconduct and following a formal process if informal means of resolving the issue has not worked. Even if this is a hypothetical case, there isn't adequate information to to make an informed judgement.
Canopener  
#10 Posted : 22 July 2010 18:56:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

While you can discipline a member of staff for all number of reasons, quite possibly including for failing to carry out a risk assessmewnt, if this is part of their job, job description, contract, company policy or an agreed target etc, I suggest that you will be on a sticky wicket using a specific section of the HASAWA (HSAW 194?!) to do so. Isn't that a sanction for use by the prosecuting authorities rather than the employer.
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 22 July 2010 19:35:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Jay has a good point about the employer being responsible for the risk assessment in the first place. Given that there is a risk assessment with ssow, a refusal to follow that ssow is a refusal to follow the employer's instructions. if I was the employer I would not be too happy about that. There are some sections of employment where such misconduct leads immediately to the sack. Construction is just one. I know of a recent incident that led to a dangerous situation and the man responsible was "let go". No argument there.
chris.packham  
#12 Posted : 22 July 2010 21:55:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Surely this becomes an HR/management issue rather than a health and safety issue. You can produce procedures, ssows, etc. but it is up to the relevant manager to ensure that these are complied with. I would investigate the reasons for non-compliance. If appropriate I would implement adjustments to the procedures, arrange for additional training, etc. If there are no valid reasons for non-compliance, then the situation should be handed to his manager to deal with. Chris
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 23 July 2010 09:06:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I think we're heading in the right direction here, risk assessments are just a part of whole working arrangement, just the same as driving a vehicle is just one part. If you train someone to drive a flt and he refuses to drive it what does the employer do then?
jwk  
#14 Posted : 23 July 2010 09:34:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

It certainly is possible to discipline people for failing to carry out reasonable safety instructions. We did it here, in fact we sacked somebody for failing to co-operate with a H&S audit process. What I would say is that you need to dot every i and cross every t, provide written advice and support, be prepared to discuss factors which are claimed to prevent them doing what has to be done, and then, once you have exhausted all the non-discipline options open to you in your HR policy, move to formal action. Not following a RA is failure to co-operate with your employer; if the employee has grounds for doubting the accuracy or value of the RA then Reg 14 applies, and they should act on that. Nonetheless, if it's the employer's opinion versus the employee's then it's the employee who has to co-operate, not the employer. We didn't do it lightly, and I really don't like the idea, but if an employer is to make a workplace safe the employees do have to co-operate, and eventually it can get to the stage where there is no alternative, John
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