Have just read a post on here which seems to say that the poster has both a degree in H&S and Grad IOSH status, but has absolutely no practical experience. This seems to me to be a complete nonsense. We keep reading about the need for competency and accreditation, but surely this makes a mockery of any such system. The whole point regarding good health and safety advice is to make it realistic, legally compliant and relevant-I would contend that the requisite knowledge should be gained through a mixture of practical experience and study.

I fully understand that the degree gained indicates academic ability-but how can it be right for someone with NO practical experience to be awarded Grad IOSH status? No wonder the profession is subject to criticism from outside.

entry level or paid placement HSE job needed (about 10 down from mine)

er... Grad= Graduate?? so if you've graduated then your a graduate? dont see the problem here.

You cant rank against experience you can only rank against qualifications so nebosh cert gets you tech diploma/ degree etc gets you grad and then IPD proving that certain practical experience requirements gets you chartered.

I think this system is fine

Hence, why I said it would be interesting to see what Caroline would have to say. Many people take different routes to get to CMIOSH and once they have satisfied the criteria that IOSH have laid down to reach those various stages, then I am happy.

Sorry-Of course I fully understand that Grad is short for Graduate, however, where does this system address the question of competency (competency= knowledge+EXPERIENCE). I maintain that the experience part of this equation is not addressed in this case. The law requires that employers seek out and accept competent advice. In practical terms, how can someone with no experience be competent? Obviously I have no problem with people starting out in a profession, I merely query the "Grad IOSH" part as I believe that this confers at least an air of "competency", which in my opinion cannot possibly be justified.

Look at it another way-if I was so minded I could, using this criteria, obtain Grad IOSH status and then falsify/embellish a CV (not unheard of I believe). The awarding of this grade does give the recipient a status within the profession.

Don't forget, we all know the system, but we are normally dealing with people/employers who don't. From their perspective a qualification is a qualification is a qualification etc.

Do we think so that a PR campaign be launched to educate recruiters as how our system works?

And someone could be competent without being a member of IOSH at all...

Marcus B, very true indeed.

As Marcus has stated, you do not have to be a member of IOSH to be competent, there are many professionals out there who for one reason or another haven't joined IOSH at all. After all it is voluntary.

All bodies such as IOSH etc have a rank for graduates, a degree is a strong qualification and shouldnt be belittled. Also when I did mine 50% of the course was practical (placements etc) so its not all theory.

Also how do you get experience if nobody will give you a job because you dont have experience? its a vicious circle...

I dont believe many companies would employ you just because of where you are within IOSH, I think a lot more comes into it than that.

To throw an issue I have out there, why if you do an NVQ (level 4) can you get away with sitting an open book assessment to get chartered but if you have a degree (level 6) do you have to go through the IPD portfolio (which is seriously hard work and takes ages to complete) it doesnt seem fair to me, I agree with the hard work and the proving of competence but I do feel that those who have done an NVQ do get off a bit lightly.

Typing as you posted Neil, but I agree with this statement.

I fully agree that the membership of IOSH is voluntary and that non-members may well be just as competent...However, the member who was talking about being Grad IOSH and having a degree in H&S has self-evidently joined, so its fair enough for other members to have a viewpoint. I also agree that there should be some recognition for having a degree-I'm merely objecting to the fact that someone can apparently go so far without arguably the most important qualification of all-EXPERIENCE. As a suggestion, when someone joins IOSH why can't it be made compulsory for them immediately to start IPD/CPD to demonstrate competence? This could be suspended during times of unemployment, illness etc.

When I started I had the cert but little/no experience, but got a job where h&s played a very small part. I then moved to jobs with more h&s involvement etc....now, here I am today, doing what I do and realising that my experiences (good and bad) over the years have proved vital.

I'm talking about when people join-as early as TechIOSH. I think the CPD/IPD should be compulsory from then on

Hi Neil

Just to make you aware that CPD is mandatory for Technician Members - it is mandatory for all members who are not Affiliates or on a retired category of Membership.

IPD is only available to Graduate Members as it is the route to Chartered Membership. To address the experience requirement of IPD, the last stage of all of the IPD Routes is a Peer Review Interview. This is where the experience is tested. CPD is also mandatory for Graduate Members.

Kind regards
Lucy Mott
Membership Officer

The problem is that I'm not talking about CMIOSH-the original post referred to Grad IOSH, where technically no experience is necessary to gain the qualification. I believe that employers often go for the letters after the name and that this could pose a problem. I'm glad that your recruitment process is stringent, but wonder if everyone's is... this appears to be a loophole. At the risk of being boring, how can someone with Grad IOSH and no experience be capable of giving consistently competent advice? Its akin to someone passing the theory part of the driving test and then being allowed to get behind the wheel unsupervised.

The issue can be seen from different aspects.

When I was Grad IOSH, I had 8 years OHS experiences but I accepted graduate level because of IOSH structure. I had shortfall in qualifications, so I have gained ,to be Grad IOSH. Gaining qualification and experience are both difficult and time consuming. But the point is , IOSH members should see where are their shortfalls and try to rectify them with CPD. we know that we cant find a system 100% perfect!

SHV

I don’t see much of a problem here (IMHO) I’m Tech IOSH but will soon be Grad IOSH. The Grad IOSH may help to get a nibble but it will be my experience on my CV that will get the bite. I’m not a young graduate and know my abilities (got enough grey hair to prove it). However, I would like to think that someone would take on a young graduate and put them into a position where they could develop their skills safely.

NVQ attainment is based upon varying evidence of attaining the required vocational standards, e.g. Work you have done. May I suggest an exam based NEBOSH Dip consultant of little experience is more of a graduate than someone who has 25yrs H&S practical experience and has proved their field competence.

As a registered engineer I recognise these defensive debates of my O levels are worth more than your GCSE's etc etc. Do you want Graduate Engineers fresh out of Uni or a time served apprentice?

Competence relevant to the hazard and risk is the key. I've met some rearly sharp Tech IOSH's and some pretty useless CMIOSH's depending if they are in or out of their experience domain. Everyones got a place!

The way I see it it is not the attainment of academic qualifications that are being "got at". it is the lack of weight that experience is given.

Health and safety has morphed over the years to become an industry in its own right and we now have graduates being placed in the position of safety adviser, or inspector come to that, with no experience of the working world.

Compare this to those on tech levels who have been in safety for donkeys years but are held back from achieving Chartered status for the lack of a bit of paper.

IMHO experience counts for far less in modern health an safety than it used to as regards IOSH!

All newly qualified H&S Professionals should be given a fair shake. All professions need new blood in order for the profession to move forward. If the new recruits come in the form of school leavers or university graduates shouldn't matter. They've decided for themselves which road they ultimately want to travel down. Anybody who puts in the effort should be applauded.

I'd just like to say that I secured employment with a company who were seeking the services of someone with a Grad (or higher) membership with IOSH. Although I only have the basic NEBOSH Gen Cert (NVQ 3) and classed as a H & S Practitioner, I do have 23 years experience under my belt. Subsequently, I was selected aged 40 with my TechIOSH membership pending, as opposed to the 25 year who had recently qualified.

I don't confess to know everything ... if I'm unsure, I say so and look things up. I'm not looked down upon because I don't have a vast array of post nominals after my name; I'm looked up at because I tell things how they are ... I offer cost effective, simple solutions to situations sometimes over complicated by those who do have MA's, MBA's & MSc's with supporting IOSH membership.

Perhaps a simple solution could be used such as sub-grading membership levels (on a scale from 1-5); for example TechIOSH Grade 1 ... where the individual has recently attained the membership level, but is lacking the experience to Grade 5 where there is a wealth of documented evidence available to support an individuals experience at the membership level.

I confess, I am new to IOSH and life as a civilian ... I've been even more shocked to discover that an individual (with little or no training), can legally call themselves a Health & Safety Consultant with no membership with IOSH or even the IIRSM.

Perhaps (as suggested), a publicity campaign should be considered, so companies are better aware of the membership levels and their meaning.

No doubt I will be shot down in flames and advised to get back in to my box, but ranting and raving won't solve anything. I admire and respect those who may be better qualified than I am; who have Grad and CMIOSH status, but why are we here ... what are our goals and objectives?

Ian