Ian, every success to you in your career. Some people with qualifications like to impress people by waffling or as I call it "Baffling people with BS". Hence the defintion of competence under Irish Statute Law is Training, Knowledge and Experience. If I am feel that I am not competent to do something, I would rather leave a job than have the blood of someone on my conscience.

Sorry for delay in getting back-had day off to recover from furore I caused...first of all let me put one or 2 things straight. This thread was emphatically not about point scoring or having a go at people with academic qualifications. Also, my choice of "qualification" rather than "level of membership" was an error. All I was trying to say was that in this profession of all professions, surely practical experience is of huge importance and that anyone contemplating a career in this profession would benefit from practical experience as well as academic achievement. No one, it seems to me, (although I've only had time to quickly scan), has answered the basic question-how can one give consistently competent advice without practical experience? Competency is not just a form of words, it is a legal requirement. We've all come across consultants, safety advisers and inspectors who spout regulations and ACOPs without thinking things through and coming up with sensible solutions-are they competent? Often, it appears to me, some "professionals" hide behind jargon to cover up their lack of competency. Its all very well to say that some CMIOSH level consultants are rubbish, just as there are some excellent Tech IOSH guys out there...I fully agree. My basic point is, however, that academic qualifications are NOT enough on their own. I could have spent my day off learning brain surgery, but that would not make me competent. (I would have needed at least a week)

Here’s a question: How many health and safety professionals started in another job slowly gaining experience in that particular field then moving into a full time health and safety role because of it? In my opinion I would guess a fair number. So that person would be considered as having a good foundation. The other problem that I can see is that companies do not employ lots of health and safety professions due to financial reasons (health and safety reps trained in house and across the organisation are cheaper and effective). So unlike other professional professions, an individual will not have the luxury of others in that profession offering their opinion and advice on site and in the know, so to speak. So as an employer who would you like in that position?

I'm an affiliate member. I have the NGC and am at present halfway through the National diploma. I am also a lead auditor for ISO 14001 and OHSAS 18001. I am the H&S manager for a large multi-national company. I am also a Chartered engineer and a member of the chartered institute of management. I have absolutely no intention of applying for, Tech, Grad or any otheR level within IOSH. Good luck to all those who wish to do so, but in my honest opinion it does not demonstrate to an employer competence to carry out the role. Most job ads ask for dip level or equivalent and not membership level.

Agreed, but the principle stands. In genereal the public and the vast majority of employers could not give two hoots what level of IOSH membership you hold as long as you can show competence through experience and qualifications.

I will bow to your more specific knowledge on Irish employers. One of the regional sustainability groups made up of several dozen local companies that I attend on a frequent basis are to the best of my knowledge unsure of who, what, where and why IOSH is? There seems to be too little advertising of IOSH to anyone outside of the organisation.

Very Interesting discussion. Many of the positions that I see advertised for H&S personnel have a requirement for sector specific experience in addition to H&S qualification. As one who became involved in H&S as a trade union safety representative back in the early 90's only to fall victim to unemployment due to industry derugulation, I believed that the way forward was to gain formal qualification but, as many have found in the workplace experience counts, being able to understand why workers ignore H&S is largely commonsense, not academic prose. HOW MANY TIMES have you heard someone say, "We can teach them everything except Common Sense". The same applies to experience, it is aquired over time, you cannot teach experience. The following happened to me a few years ago, A position was advertised for a Health & Safety Officer within the company, covering ditribution depots. As a distribution depot manager, I had the operational experience and held Nebosh Certificate and was prepared to study for Diploma. The position was offered to an external applicant with no operational knowledge of our business because he already held the diploma. Fair enough, but I felt insulted enough to leave when told I could never be considered for a Health and Safety role in the organisation because I would be in a senior role to my 'current managers'. So in common with many other TechIOSH, I have a role which encompasses Health and Safety but it is not my primary role. I do not have the opportunity to advance academicaly through lack of funds and maintain CPD by searching for and attending free seminars during my holidays. I still have around 15 years to go before I can consider retirement so if anyone is looking for an old geezer with one foot in the grave rather than a young upwardly mobile high flyer, I could still make GradIOSH before I die.

Nikki-Napo, Wash your mouth out with soap. 48 is young ;0)

Excellent, Gordon. Thats a SIX, straight over the boundary.

The spelling is spot on. Not bad for a Sassenach ;0)

Thank-you Tim for your excellent post.

I think that is an excellent idea Thomas. As regards SHP, it's not only them that don't advertise trainee positions. Since qualifying, there have been 2 positions (in my region) that were for trainees that I came across. 1 of them wasn't commutable. This wasn't via SHP mind you.

There key issue is whether employers or clients of consultants understand what the "qualification" or the "membership level" of a professional body means, irrespective of Tech OSH or Grad OSH and then after carefully looking at the all that (through CV's and interviews/assessment days etc and experience) appoint them. However, the term Graduate member many could mean a lack of experience in the conventional sense to those who do not have the wisdom that in this day and age, there is lifelong learning and one can be a "graduate member" with significant experience. This has to be explained to preopectve emplyers/clients in by suitable means.

Gordon You make some good points, and I acknowledge my lack of giving credit to new members and their right to express and debate issues as they see fit and proper, as you rightly state it has caused some lively debate and has caused people to examine and think, not a bad thing in my own opinion. So please accept my apologies for that element. I cannot agree with your example that someone can pay for an academic Health and Safety course, and leave with no experience, especially one accredited by IOSH (it may however be the case for a Graduate from a non IOSH accredited H&S degree courses but those people from those courses would not necessarily get Graduate Status of IOSH). I would also add that through an IOSH accredited higher educational programme where the IOSH core curriculum must be adhered to, work based learning now features explicitly. Many of the (if not all of the Graduate Members including the posting you first refer to) will have some level of hands on experience, depending upon their life experience – either from life, home, school or from entering into Further or Higher Education. In my own experience those entering the University or Further Education sector have within their course induction a Health and Safety Section, so they gain hands on experience from that activity. Within the course I lead myself, students undertake laboratory work, before they can begin any work in a laboratory the safety rules are fully explained, again giving them some hands on experience which they can use as a comparator when studying. Within the University sector many students have to undertake projects within industry which is linked in to their learning and assessment regime, which does give them hands on experience. This will also be supported by the risk assessment process that students have to complete as part of their entering the work based learning project, again giving them hands on experience. Course Leaders like myself as project supervisors, have to submit our Health and Safety process, for University audit by our corporate H&S teams. This includes evidencing Health and Safety induction process and briefing given by the host employer providing the students with the work based learning opportunity, this has to be done in conjunction with the student. I strongly dispute that any student leaving the University or College sectors of education has no Health and Safety experience. So I reject the argument that anyone undertaking an accredited IOSH Degree or programme of higher academic study has no hands on experience. The point about process is not irrelevant because your argument centres on the fact that you express that Graduate Members have no Health and Safety experience. The argument I present is that everyone has some health and safety experience because of their previous life experiences, and that as within other professions IOSH has an entry level for Graduates. I accept in the point you make that employers may not all appreciate the full implications of a Graduates limitations, but would suggest that employers would be comfortable employing a Graduate given their higher level of knowledge and proven ability to solve problems or challenges and that they would know where to go for assistance in finding those solutions. The point about process is that the IOSH process ensures that all Graduate members gain the appropriate experience to supplement their knowledge before becoming Chartered Members. This will be supported by their Skills Development Portfolio and of course CPD. Again one reason why I began, devised and promoted the IOSH mentoring scheme – to give those practitioners who may have less experience a ready point of assistance should this be required, in addition to other sources of support like these forums. I can say that the advertising team at SHP and our colleagues at Leicester have worked hard to ensure that recruiters when placing advertising are made aware of what they are asking for. To this end recruiters have been targeted to better inform them about levels of IOSH membership and to help recruiters target the appropriate level of practitioner when advertising jobs. But at the end of the day they will have to advertise what the employer pays them to advertise. IOSH are working hard at this as we speak. The point you make about Grad IOSH and becoming a Safety Consultant may be true, but far less dangerous in my humble opinion, than someone with say IOSH Managing Safely becoming a consultant (which I know has happened) and which is causing many concern. Hence some of Lord Young’s comments at IOSH 2010. Which is why I fully support any moves (as many people do I believe) to have the whole profession regulated. I would go further and say that anyone teaching on a professional safety course should also be subject to that same regulation, as has to be the case for many other professions (yes people may now accuse me of self preservation). Tom, your idea has merit, but in my own experience I have a list of employers willing to give student practitioners work based learning opportunities and contact them when needed, I think this may be the same with other Universities as well but cannot guarantee that. That situation may change however, with the debate surrounded unpaid internships though, especially when the report from the Institute for Public Policy and Research (IPPR) about unpaid internships is fully debated and discussed. Follow this link for more information http://www.workplacelaw.net/news/display/id/29530

Ciaran I would doubt that but if you would like to PM me the details it can be followed up. As I chaired the Higher Education Forum and revamed the core curriculum I can assure you that work basedlearning is included. Regards Tim Briggs

Good evening to all who have posted I was going to try to ask the poster of the original Konduks about what experience he has. Unfortunately this cannot be done so I have PM'd him to offer help. Best regards to all and Gordon well done for sparking a lively debate. At the end of the day we are all enhancing our knowledge. Tim Briggs

Well done, Tim

Tim, I have emailed the link to you Ciaran