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Deecee  
#1 Posted : 02 August 2010 20:40:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Deecee

Hopefully someone can help me here and i hope its the correct forum to use. Have a relative who works for a distribution company as a driver of 7.5 T vehicles, the contracted hours mean he finishes work at 11am on a Saturday and starts again 8am Monday. So they have their 45 hour rest period. All drivers are now being told that they are not allowed to take part in any work activity what so ever from those periods, not for the company but "any other" work acivity that they may get paid for, they have been also made to sign a declaration to that effect. The problem here is that the relative has a hobby (an official in a sport) which he gets paid a flat rate for the "job" and an expense to reimburse travelling costs (taxation not an issue here as he does declare this as other income), but does officiate at a very high standard which he has been for some 20 years. Now the questions. Can the company do this? if so under what legislation, and there is nothing in his contract stipulating this and the company knew of the hobby when he was employed. Do the Tacho regs apply as i was under the understanding that they only related to the driving of the vehicle he is employed to do so? I could understand it if the other work was driving a similar vehicle for another company, but surely the regs arent in place to stop someone taking part in an activity which payment is made. Thanks for any help that you can give
Deecee  
#2 Posted : 02 August 2010 21:22:02(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Deecee

Hav had a call from someone in the industry who has advised that the 45 hour period is one that no work of any kind can be undertaken.
freelance safety  
#3 Posted : 02 August 2010 21:32:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
freelance safety

Deecee, I can only surmise from the information provided, as it is not as comprehensive to give a definitive. Can you please clarify the following:- Firstly, are they saying only paid work or any work? Have they stated their definition of ‘work’ and if so does this relate only to driving?
Deecee  
#4 Posted : 02 August 2010 21:39:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Deecee

The company have stated any activity payment is recieved for is deemed to be work and not just driving.
bob youel  
#5 Posted : 03 August 2010 10:47:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

what about a hobby that requires extensive driving over a week end as an example; common sense gone mad again!
wizzpete  
#6 Posted : 03 August 2010 11:48:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wizzpete

The Working Time Directive applies to Mobile workers. If an Employee drives a vehicle that requires a Tachograph to be fitted (the 7.5t truck does), then the WTD rules apply for the entire week (even if the employee drives for 30 mins say on a Monday and not again for the whole week) This means driving is recorded as Driving Time, any other type of work (regardless of what it is or for who) as Other Work and days off as 'Weekly Rest'. Without reciting the Regulations in full, A Mobile worker must have a Weekly Rest period after a maxiumum of 6 x 24hr periods. This is usually for a duration of 45hrs, but can be reduced to no less than 24hrs once in any 2 week period. The only 'work' that can legally be undertaken during a Weekly Rest requirement is Reserve service in the Armed forces (e.g TA). Hobbies are not considered work so you can do what you like! The Employer is perfectly within their rights I'm afraid to demand an undertaking from their employees that they are not working when they are on their weekly rest period as they are legally required to record their employees' Average Working Time over a rolling period. However, provided the weekly or Rolling average WTD maximums are not exceeded and he/she gets sufficient weekly rest, then your friend could continue every other week to do what they do. Hope this helps. It is ridiculous and very difficult to accurately Police the WTD, but breaches could leave the Employer open to fines and ultimately removal of their 'O' licence, although that would be a rare case indeed.
Phillips20760  
#7 Posted : 03 August 2010 11:58:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Not sure if it's 'common sense gone mad' as surely it's quite reasonable for an employer to enforce that no secondary jobs are undertaken which could infringe the WTD and (arguably) an individuals capability to drive safely due to lack of rest. I agree that, quite rightly, hobbies are not included in the WTD (and therefore the employer isn't accountable for this) but there still needs to be a certain amount of individual responsiblility and sensibility. If a HGV driver spends all week driving around Europe, then I wouldn't advise them to spend all weekend driving - albeit as a hobby - to then continue driving long distances on a Monday morning. Not sure if there's any civil cases on this but would you be exercising a reasonable duty of care to other road users.....
Deecee  
#8 Posted : 03 August 2010 16:56:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Deecee

Thanks for the information it is helpful. My advice before posting was that his activity is a hobby therefore the employer cant instruct him to stop this hobby. However, the problem is that as he gets a payment for his hobby the employer is deeming it to be work, even though on average the monies paid only cover training equipment and travelling and in some case the IR have deemed it to be a hobby not a job or business. Rock and hard place, but i do think the advice i give will be the same and that is to advise the employer that as its a hobby that minimum payment (not a working wage) is given the WTD doesnt apply.
pete48  
#9 Posted : 03 August 2010 17:55:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Deecee, rock and a hard place indeed. Are you absolutely sure that your friend is receiving a wage or payment for services. If so then a contract has been established which would mean that the national minimum wage should be paid and thus your comment above may be incorrect and the organisation may be at risk (albeit a very unlikely risk). If not then perhaps it may be just a re-imbursement of expenses? (nudge nudge wink wink) That is not a wage and does not invoke all that goes with paying/receiving a wage including your current dilemma. What a place we now inhabit when it is not allowed for a driver to "work" during a rest period but can drive all weekend if they choose to do it for pleasure, Confused, I am. This is a link to the VEIS info sheet on volunteers and NMW http://www.volunteering....ActandVolunteersVE08.pdf p48
johnmurray  
#10 Posted : 04 August 2010 00:33:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Truck drivers not only have the wtd to satisfy, they have the EU Driving Hours and the Road Transport Directive. So if they work another driving job the hours on that go towards the allowed driving hours on the other job. Not only that, if you look at your car insurance you are only covered to commute to a permanent place of work. According to my broker that means that if you have a second job you will have to take out another policy or modify your original insurance.
bob youel  
#11 Posted : 04 August 2010 08:56:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

where there is a payment for a 'hobby' then that 'hobby' may become paid employment - the dept of pensions and the inland rev may have something to say as you cannot easily have both a hobby and get paid for that hobby/part of that hobby I am sure that there is some tax and/or pension and/or employment law case law that covers this situation as you cannot have everything e.g. volunteering and getting some payment is not a hobby situation Common sense CS should apply for both the employer and the employee but unfortunately CS does not apply in many cases so law has to be developed to ensure that we do not put ourselves at needless risk Personally I believe that driving has been 'picked on' some what as there are many higher risk occupations than driving; electricians working Mon to Friday and then undertaking 'foreigner' electrical work over the weekend especially after a night or 2 out on the raz is but one example yet no specific legislation applies other than the Management regs
johnmurray  
#12 Posted : 04 August 2010 14:33:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Falling asleep while driving 40 tonnes along a road seems more dangerous than killing yourself by electrocution, at least to me it does. Fortunately with the advent of the digital tacho and its relevant smartcard "licence" the drivers can no longer shadow drive for another company....at least not for long.
Ciarán Delaney  
#13 Posted : 04 August 2010 14:38:24(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Simple suggestion: why doesn't the employee concerned ask to speak to HR or his line manager. Explain the circumstances and see what they have to say, if it is only a sporting activity.
Seamusosullivan  
#14 Posted : 04 August 2010 19:13:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seamusosullivan

Deecee wrote:
All drivers are now being told that they are not allowed to take part in any work activity what so ever from those periods, not for the company but "any other" work acivity that they may get paid for, they have been also made to sign a declaration to that effect.
My understanding is that an employer can not change the terms and conditions of an employment contract, unless the employee fully agrees to it. The drivers need to get legal advice.
pete48  
#15 Posted : 04 August 2010 19:29:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Seamus, what a wonderful idea that employers cannot change a contract without agreement. True of course in one way, however in the UK at least, if agreement cannot be reached after proper consultation then the employer can usually terminate the existing contract and simply offer you a new one including the revised terms. In effect sacking you unless you agree to the new contract. You could always go for unfair dismissal in such circumstances but your chances of success are very slim unless there are failures in proper consultation, there is no demonstrable business need for the changes or the changes are deemed unreasonable terms. p48
Seamusosullivan  
#16 Posted : 04 August 2010 19:53:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seamusosullivan

Deecee wrote:
there is nothing in his contract stipulating this and the company knew of the hobby when he was employed.
Intresting, and relevant.
Ciarán Delaney  
#17 Posted : 04 August 2010 22:40:02(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Pete, same situation pertains in ROI.
wizzpete  
#18 Posted : 05 August 2010 14:50:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wizzpete

Regardless of what is or is not in the contract, the Employer MUST record a Mobile Workers' 'other work' to comply with their obligations under the Working Time Directive and the Drivers' Hours rules. If an Employee tells their Employer that for their weekly rest period they sat at home all weekend when they were in fact working, then any subsequent investigation by an Enforcement Agency (VOSA, Police, etc) would look very dimly on an Employer that failed to get an answer to the question. The Employer is perfectly within their rights to expect an Employee to assist them in carrying out their legal duties.
johnmurray  
#19 Posted : 06 August 2010 10:10:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

If ANY employee has NOT signed the opt-out AND has a second job that takes him/her over the 48 hours then there could be problems....
wizzpete  
#20 Posted : 06 August 2010 15:03:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wizzpete

The ability for Moble workers to opt out of the WTD requirements was removed in 2003 with the introduction of the Horizontal Amendin Directive (HAD). The HAD was incorporated into The Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003 and the Road Transport Directive was implemented in 2005 by the The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005. To cut a long list of regulations short, if you drive a vehicle with a Tachograph fitted for any length of time whatsoever, you cannot opt out of the 48hr average maximum.
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