Can I ask why, in a fairly standard size office, a requirement for two types of Fire extinguisher exists? Not by law, (at least I don't know of any) but by an appointed Fire Officer. While the previous Fire officer said something completely different. One water the other CO2. Chances are an electrical fault will be the cause of any fire either through wiring or an electrical appliance and so water would be useless. If a paper fire ignited through, I don't know, lets say sunlight through a window, would a water extinguisher be used with so many electrical appliances around? It appears to me that yes, Fire extinguishers should be provided but the one per 200sq metre rule (depending on activities in the building) and one per floor would be sufficient for most offices. Having said all that, my first instinct is to get everyone out to a safe place and not use the extinguishers (a whole different debate I know). I would be interested to hear everyone thoughts.

Any Fire Officer inspecting a premises is going to give his/her interpretation of the regulations. In the old fire certificate days we were told to move electrical equipment (a photocopier) just about every year at the annual inspection - one wanted it here, one wanted it there. We just moved it back and forwards between the two different places. More recently I was given some advice about creating a safe escape route which was completely reversed by the same officer in a phone call later the same day - from "you can't do that" to "yes, that's OK". They are only human and trying to do their job... but it is frustrating sometimes.

Thank you all for your responses. Is the two types of extinguisher law? Am I right that you have to provide a means of extinguishing a small fire?

I think that is good advice Chris, I think some assistance may be needed.

p.s. NOT ME! Oh for an edit facility!

Agree with above comments... you may find it useful to read the following guidance. There are no 'laws' only a requirement to assess. I am not sure if you know the difference between 'law' ACOPs and guidance? I am not going to go there now tho :) http://www.communities.g...ons/fire/firesafetyrisk2 I am sure reading the relevant parts of the above might help.

To the best of my understanding the requirements come from BS 5306, whilst a 13A rated extinguisher (such as a water or AFFF) can cover up to 200m2, but there is a requirement to have an additional extinguisher per floor regardless of floor area. That means you should have at least 2 13A rated extinguishers per floor. Then you need to consider if you have differing fire loads, such as you would in an office, and provide Co2. However, in my experince the above rule is flexible. A visiting fire officer only wants to see if an extinguisher is there, they will not start calculating floor space. I have heard rumour of one very large retailer who thought of removing extinguishers from all its sites (justified by risk assessment) but didn't in the end because it would likely have spread them all over the media (you can imagine the headlines!).

scrumpyman I think you are missing the main point here. There is more than one type of fire therefore there has to be more than one type of extinguisher. If you have an office premises completely made up of timber with timber furniture and paper for sending messages and writing letters then a water extinguisher is the only one you will ever need. If you have an electrical sub station made of brick/metal with nothing other than electrical equipment inside then a C02 would suffice. It is when you have more than one type of fire risk present that you have to provide the right extinguisher for each risk. I assume you have an office with timber, paper etc. also electrical equipment such as PC, printer, copier etc, maybe evan a kitchen with electrical cooking/warming equipment, toilets with paper and perhaps an electic hand dryer, I could go on and on and on. If so you will also need to cover those risks. Seeing as you have a fire officer are you not able to talk to him/her for clarification?

I doubt it as I can't think of many situations where I would sue someone for this? However take a look at fire brigade enforcement notices. http://www.dsfire.gov.uk...forcementPublicRegister/ I chose my home county but a quick *generic* search engine will give you others. My point was enforcement action will be taken on article of law, the guidance is a good way to show compliance with the law. The guidance suggests a min number of extinguishers. You would be hard pressed to risk assess out. Also IMHO a fire tackled in it's very early stages and extinguished might well save lives but it all depends on circumstance! Where's messyshaw when you need him? :)

I’ve only just read some of the comments on this subject, as a former fire officer I can tell you the following:- There are lots of fire legislative requirements:- to name a few e.g. – Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 – Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 – Building Act 1984 – Building Regulations 2000 – Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 – Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006 – Building (Scotland) Act 2003 – Building (Scotland) Regulations 2004 – Fire Precautions Act 1971 (Northern Ireland only) – Building Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 – Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 In terms of the commentary relating to case law, this can be both civil and criminal. Get a copy of Munkman’s and look through the masses of fire case law, including extinguishers, relating to criminal judicial precedent! I understand the sentiments of getting everyone out and not tackling fires however, there are legal requirements for providing specific fire marshal training; suitably assessing the types of extinguishers needed for the location based on a classification system e.g. 1. Class A: Solid materials. (e.g. Water) 2. Class B: Flammable liquids. (e.g. Foam) 3. Class C: Flammable gases. (e.g. Co2, also for B type fires) 4. Class D: Metals. 5. Class F: cooking oils. (e.g. wet chemical) Extinguishers should be: • Located within easy reach so that no-one has to travel more than 30m to get one • Placed in conspicuous locations such as on escape routes, stairways, corridors, exits or landings • Grouped together in fire points where practicable • Wall mounted on brackets (not more than 1m high) and sign posted • On similar positions on each floor. Worth noting that both New Look and the Co-op have both recently been prosecuted, check out Augusts SHP, for fire breaches (including fire assessments and fire marshal training). Both got six figure fines, if I remember correctly New Look was fine in the region of £400,000 and the Co-op £200,000!

Your Welcome. Glad to know you have a fire officer who cares.

I know I've come to this debate late on, but let me offer an alternative thought. What if the first extinguisher fails? Your insurance company may also have something to say on the matter. In order to be covered for hot work they usually require there to be two extinguishers. Obviously this is different for your office but it's worth checking out, if only to give you a more definitive answer! A

Chris, we're both in agreement about two extinguishers of the correct type & properly serviced etc. I was merely injecting a question which hadn't been asked earlier in the disussion. As for why two for hot work, it's just standard practice, following the FPA Code of Practice for Fire Prevention on Construction Sites. A similar stance is taken by insurance companies too. A

No worries Chris. You're right though, it would depend on the level of risk. I don't know if I'd prepare a specific fire risk assessment for one operation - hot work would come into your overall site fire safety plan. If the permit procedures work though, you would have a fairly low-risk environment anyway with all combustibles tidied away and a suitable number of extinguishers etc. I wouldn't apply the one extinguisher rule too rigidly. My understanding is that fire extinguishers are there to enable people to exit a building, therefore the main objective must be to evacuate and to only use extinguishers if your escape is affected by the fire. Hence why, I think, that two would be sufficient as the likelihood of them both failing is remote provided they've been looked after. Inside a workshop....this should be covered by the premises fire risk assessment, and the level of controls appropriate to the process & environment. Yeah, I think this may be a whole new debate on it's own! I think that we can say two is the minimum but it will depend on other factors present at each site. A

As part of a fire risk assessment the issue of hot work should be covered on what to do and what the procedure is if it is something new that has never been done before then you may need to amend the fire risk assessment with how you are going to control the risk. otherwise you should always carry out a basic risk assessments fro any hot work ensuring the control measures are in place that are required under the fire risk assessment or at least the procedure you should refer to (example hot work permit which should contain all the relevant measure you need to comply with) there's lots of information on control measures you should take on the internet most of them are common sense but worth having a document to follow and record the event. Phil

Bob their is no legal minimum for extinguishers but what there is a legal requirement for is that if you provide extinguishers then you must provide training for staff to use them. As for the rest of your argument, if you really expect staff to walk away from a flicker of a flame rather than nip it in the bud before it gets too big then I personally think you are wrong. Letting a fire develop when you could have extinguished it early may actually place more people at risk than it would have done by not extinguishing it. It also places firefighters at risk or do you think because they are trained then they won't be injured?

there is a legal requirement to train employees how to use fire extinguishers. The office that produce GLC guides was prosecuted for not providing fire extinguisher training for it's staff fire extinguishers are not difficult to operate and following a few simple rules no employee should put themselves at risk or tackle anything bigger than a waste paper bin that has already been referred to. if you supply the equipment then employees must be trained on how to use it as other have said tackling a fire in it's early stages can prevent others been put at risk. look at some of the recent fires where employees fail to react to the situation and lose their lives, not everyone responds to a fire alarm as they should. Not sure where managing a situation for 30 years comes into play when you don't do anything about the issue in terms of providing training. maybe have a word with your local enforcement officer and tell them you are not providing any training on the use of fire extinguishers even though you have them on your premises. Phil

Good posting Wizard!

I agree with you Chris a fire blanket or even as you say a ring binder over the top of a waste bin fire is a good way to deal with the fire but this does mean that the person has to get close up with the fire at least arms length. With a fire extinguisher you can stand some 5-7 metres away and deal with the fire, probably in most offices you could in fact stand in the doorway and deal with the fire. I believ evryone should be trained and then it is down to the individual if faced with a fire if they are confident and able to deal with the fire as i always say to anyone i train if in doubt get out. I'm not looking to train hero's just to train common sense. Phil

Bob I can tell you what I would expect from someone who has had 30 years experience managing fire safety, the least I would expect is that they be aware of their legal responsibilities particularly with respect to training staff. Failure to provide adequate fire safety training, including use of extinguishers, is one of the principal elements of any prosecution by the ‘professional’ fire service. In your previous posting you did not refer to the size of any fire, you only stated that staff instructions are to evacuate at the first sign of fire. My argument is that there has to be an element of common sense about this. I believe people get far too emotional about fire and the risk it poses. It is a fact that the majority of fires are extinguished by first aid firefighting, this might be the use of a portable fire extinguisher or it may simply be stamping it out, but generally it is the application of common sense. I’m not sure about what part of my posting went over your head but I will have a go at trying to explain a bit better. In your posting you said that staff are instructed to evacuate; by doing so they are ensuring their own safety. However some people may remain in the building, for example fire marshalls may be carrying out a sweep, checking other rooms so will have a delayed escape. People on other floors either above or below the fire may have to pass the floor of the fire; the taller the building the greater the problem. It may be not a real problem if all your fire doors are effective and there are no leaks of toxic gases into the escape route, unlikely except in the most modern of buildings where the build quality is good. Disabled occupants may be slower moving than others and so remain at greater risk if a fire is allowed to grow. Then of there are the firefighters who will turn up 10, 15, 20 minutes or more after the call. By this time the fire may involve an entire room or an entire floor. It may be on the point of flashing over. But the RRO says we don’t need to worry about firefighters doesn’t it?.....