My son who has been unemployed for over a year now since leaving school was offered several training courses where he could gain a certificate for his CV. One in particular was a level 2 CIEH H&S workplace course. Upon receiving the phone call he went to attend this two day course (on the last day), signed in, listened to some music on his ipod whilst the lecturer faffed around (his words) and the course ended two hours later not having learnt much. Three weeks on he has received a fully fledged CIEH training cert to whit he reckons I could have made a better training job of. And we wonder why there's sooooo many out of work and successive governments are short on cash for training? Badger

Can't help but feel that students that turn up and plug themselves into their ipods when they arrive for training shows a certain lack of interest in the subject. Unless there is some form of exam at the end of the course then i don't see that course having much relevance in the form of qualification more that you attended a course on a set date. No doubt there are loads of courses like this run where those unemployed are probably forced to go on, or explained that it wouldn't look good not to go. And those that do the training probably know 90% have no interest in the subject and are there under due arrest. I don't see how a 2 day course is suddenly going to get anyone a job when they have been in education since the age of 5. I would have thought employees would be more interested in what qualification your son has when he left school not a 2 day training course. Phil

Barrie, I am left wondering who you think is at 'fault' here? I am not saying that there isn't some 'fault' in the system however, as an instructor myself, and I would have had NO hesitation in pointing your son or anyone else who displayed such a similar attitude in the direction of the door. I would like to think that you feel your son has something to answer as well as the 'system'!

I tend to agree with Ron, why would you even consider taking your I-pod to a training course?

Barrie, maybe a generation thing however, totally inappropriate for any person to put use an I-pod whilst on any training course, quite disrespectful. I think that came across from the responses by both Ron and Phil, maybe you should address the issue closer to home.

Barrie, I’ve just checked with the CIEH and Ron is correct. According to the CIEH, the Level 2 is a 6 hour course, some providers do this over a day and a half, which sounds like this happened in your sons case.

Barrie, i hope you don't mind me saying this but if after 12 months unemployed, he attends a training course with an ipod in his ears, i think you can safely look forward to the 2nd anniversary of him not working. Maybe you can expect the bolshy 14 - 16 generation to act like that but if he's old enough to vote, he's old enough to be told home truths imo.

Hi all Looking at the debate and what was said originally I have the following comments/observations to make. I wonder about the trainers qualifications and motivation. I encourage a certain behaviour within my University learning sessions, setting the respect example myself and getting the students to buy in and return this displayed behaviour out of respect for myself and their fellow students. These behaviours were explained and taught during my Army training, University teaching course and has stood me in good stead throughout my career. This behaviour is about giving and gaining respect and also to ensure everyone has the chance to have an input as well as having the best opportunity to learn. I cannot comment fully as I do not know the trainer nor the circumstances but can only give an opinion based upon the impression I have gained through reading the forum comments. From my Army days this behaviour would definitely not have been considered acceptable and even the Trainers I trained would have challenged the improper behaviour if it had been displayed during their course assessment. We did set students up during their assessments to see how they would handle adverse situations to help them all benefit and give them experience of handling adverse learning environment conditions so that they did not resort to discipline as a first solution and could also be guided in handling difficult situations that did not destroy positive learning environments. Believing that students act as their teachers allow them my observation would be that by allowing this behaviour the tutor did not have good control of the classroom. There are many ways of dealing with Barry’s son’s behaviour before resorting to sending them out of the room. Similarly, is there any wonder we as professional H&S trainers get ridiculed when supposedly professional H&S trainers allow students to act in this manner, and they also then award them with a certificate for not attending the full course. As regards gaining the Certificate, multiple choice questions are a valid form of assessment technique, Barry’s son may have genuinely passed the test. But consider the alternatives, it may have been not marked as rigorously as it should. I am aware that certain trainers on certain courses, even those who are accredited and supposedly qualified trainers have given the students the answers so that a written exam sheet looks to contain the correct answers in the candidates own handwriting and a pass is achieved. The course fees can then be claimed and are then paid. I myself could not ethically or morally allow a substandard set of answers to be passed off as a pass when quite clearly they are a fail. This did cause some real upsets in the past when I was working in the rail industry, training and assessing the Personal Track Safety (PTS) papers, failing people who clearly were not up to the job even though they were working at the time as Engineering Supervisors Controllers of Site Safety etc. If they could not pass the PTS exam after revision they should not have been able to work in control of people. For those not aware the PTS certificate was the basic certification required to allow people onto the trackside to work under supervision. As I teach on a CIEH degree course I am aware that the CIEH would be horrified to hear of the events described, just as IOSH would be if this occurred on one of their accredited courses. Also educational methods have moved on. As a professional educator we now provide our students with many different electronic learning resources, including the use of podcasts, which from student feedback is very popular as they can access the learning content anywhere and at any time. I am not suggesting that the I POD described had the learning content been given, or what was been accessed was connected to the training been delivered, nor was it probably being used to access any learning content but technology and kids are very much intertwined. Dare I suggest that young people today use the available technology far more effectively than we oldies, even if it is just for social applications. So educators have tagged onto this and are using podcasts to enhance learning. Hopefully I have not offended anyone with my observations. Trainers like the one described are not professionals nor are they helpful to our cause, but I recognise that some responsibility lays with Barry’s lad. But who was supposedly in charge of the clasroom is the important factor? Who did not instill classroom etiquette/discipline? And who marked his paper giving him a pass? I will let you form your own judgements. I have also got to agree with Pete48’s comments “I think Dads are sometimes a bit quick to judge their kids and other kids. I did it as a Dad but don't do it as a Grandad, age or wisdom”. I can see a certain pattern here as I made the same mistakes as those suggested. Regards Tim B

FrankC, Was told over a year ago, still took no notice. Pete48, Going by my lads comments, he walked in, signed in, sat there for what ever period of time not being asked to do anything else and left at the allotted time. No test or exam involved. Had he done some form of test then I would be very happy and would wish know the trainer. Tim B, I think you've hit it on the head, the job centre and my lad aside, the trainers integrity is to be called into question, and finally .... MGrey, Thank you for acknowledging my sanity =O} I just wanted to highlight the fact there is some form of a scam out there that indirectly (or maybe directly) affects us as safety advisers & et. al. Badger

Morning, This post seems to me to be a classic case for demonstrating what is wrong with "Government through statistics" and how government waste tax revenues. I would not be surprised to hear that the Job Centre have a target to send "long term" unemployed on training courses, irrespective of the quality or value of that course so as "Thunder" said bums on seats. I would also not be surprised to hear that a "pass" meant more referrals because that proves the trainer is "GOOD". What I do find totally unacceptable is the professionalism of the trainer and the fact that it appears there is no continuing assessment of their capabilities or their course. I am assuming they have to undergo some initial assessment to become approved in the first instance? I managed the administrative side of a training school that delivered the PTS training that Tim referred to. I can only say that our documentation was audited annually against a protocol and we had several drop in visits each year from the auditors to sit in on training. Getting initial approved status was quite long winded and difficult, maintaining that approved status grew easier with time but was never a formality. Barrie - all you can do is try your best, hope your boy gets a job soon. Take Care All