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Steve e ashton  
#1 Posted : 07 September 2010 11:46:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

OK here's one for the seriously knowledgeable Supply of Machinery and 'type approval' specialists out there.... First the background: A business operates a 360 tracked excavator. They have designed and had fabricated an attachment which (I suspect) is unique to their operations (similar to a demolition grab, but with significant industry-specific differences). The attachment, when used for its intended purpose in tests, proves to be versatile and useful, so the operator has several more fabricated and puts them into service... The tool is found to be extremely good at doing something it was not designed to do (and doing it very rapidly)... The tool is so successful that word gets around, and other businesses in the same industry begin to either request to purchase the attachments (from the originators of the idea) or to commission their own versions of the attachments. The problem is that the attachment can exert significant overturning moments on the excavator chassis. Overturn is currently prevented only by operator care and diligence. Where do I look for the standards applicable for type testing, for overload indicators, for tilt / stop limiters .... What should be fitted? At what stage must the operator (or whoever) undertake tests /technical file compilation and EC certification or whatever of the attachment - is it under the type approval system for the vehicle or under the supply etc regs 2008? If they're not selling any of the attachments - can they continue to use their own-design equipment? Supply regs and vehicle type approval have never been much in my spheres of interest, so I'm flundering in the annexes and parts and sub-parts of various bits of Euro jargon. And what other stuff should I know so that I (as a potential client) can ask the right questions? For the avoidance of any possible doubt - the operators are very aware of, and fully awake to, the risks - this is not a cowboy operation - but there could be significant cost implications in any CE marking / type approval process... And potentially there are mega buck contracts at stake if the potential problems can not be overcome successfully. So any supply etc or type approval etc specialists - if you know what you're talking about - I'd appreciate a steer in the right direction please... Cheers Steve
ITER  
#2 Posted : 07 September 2010 12:47:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ITER

I would suggest its already illegal buy using the equipment without it being CE marked. This would take some time to answrr fully, but there you need to identify any/which standards apply ISO/EN etc. It will either be a Type A, B1, B2 or C depending upon if there is a detailed standard available for the attachment. The technical file and CE marking should have been done as part of the design process for the new equipment attachment
Ron Hunter  
#3 Posted : 07 September 2010 13:03:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The "business" may already be in technical breach of Section 6(2) of HASAWA, which requires implementation of a risk reduction hierarchy & sfarp (eliminate or minimise....). Keeping this in-house is one thing, placing on the market under your own steam would be (IMHO) wholly inadvisable. Perhaps the best marketing strategy with your invention would be to strike a bargain with a 360 excavator builder and work together on effective controls. Early trip to register at the Patent Office might be advisable too.
phow  
#4 Posted : 07 September 2010 13:10:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
phow

Steve. seems to me that you cannot sell the item (put on the market) without a CE mark, you cannot CE mark as it does not meet EN standards, because it iis a "dangerous" attachement without satety features fitted. As a user it would not meet PUER, even if you got one for cash round the back!. Seems to me you have to go to someone like JCB and enter into a licencing agreement to use your idea, but let them sort the safety technicalities for a royalty fee. regards, Peter -not an expert on this.
jay  
#5 Posted : 07 September 2010 13:47:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Some key information links:- Machinery Directive - independent sources of advice:- http://webarchive.nation...v.uk/files/file54513.pdf Machinery - guidance notes on the UK regulations :- http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file52968.pdf Full Suite of information on the Machinery Directive:- http://www.bis.gov.uk/po...ery-directive-2006-42-ec
Steve e ashton  
#6 Posted : 07 September 2010 19:08:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Cheers guys, appreciate the thoughts. It's not me trying to use / develop ?(sell or market?) this gear - its a potential contractor. I'm trying to be on the side of the angels!! I'm a client wondering whether a preferred contractor can be allowed to undercut his rivals by using a piece of kit that MAY give me some give me some cause for concern (And I have to stress that 'MAY'...) but WILL give him a serious advantage. I have seen the kit working and it is very impressive but.... Its a novel bit of kit - so there's not going to be any detailed specific standards - just the generic 'essential requirements.' I know I said the contractor had designed the attachment - in truth it probably developed itself through several iterations and attempts to get something that would do a specific job. SO I doubt very much whether there is a design drawing anywhere except perhaps on the blacksmiths forge extract hood.... I do understand the HaSAWetcA... And thats why I'm trying to work out what questions I should be asking to work out if the machine and attachment is sufficiently safe... AT what stage in the development cycle of new / novel equipment must 'CE' marking be applied? Please don't suggest that every prototype that anyone has built has been type tested / certified / approved / marked or whatever - 'cos I'd find that very hard to believe. (Although some might claim that's what is supposed to happen) And don't get me started on some of the rubbish that IS CE marked! I've already suggested the patent office to the contractor - but I think it may be too late- the information is already 'in the public domain'. I guess PHOW got nearest to my concerns - it is potentially a dangerous attachement without safety features fitted... But what safety features are there on a (large) 360 excavator to stop it overturning if it accidentally takes a big bucket of heavy rock? Does this rely on operator experience - or would you expect to see overload warnings / bypass valves to stop the thing toppling? Isn't that a dangerous attachment in those forseeable circumstances? I may be too far out of my depth now. I'm gonna turn round and paddle very gently back to shore... I'll speak to a friendly machinery expert at the HSE (if there are any left and I can find them....) Thanks again guys Steve
paul.skyrme  
#7 Posted : 07 September 2010 21:27:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Steve, Having had involvement in this process, it is my understanding that once the unit was "in production" for own use or sale, or where multiple units were produced to the same design for "own use" then Mach Dir & CE kicks in. You can be your own customer under this legislation. There are some experts I have used in the past I can put you in touch with if you want. HTH
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