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jmk  
#1 Posted : 08 September 2010 11:31:17(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
jmk

I know this question has been done to death in various guises but please bear with me as I have a sudden deadline for tomorrow to submit a paper about our office space.

- When I am calculating the numbers of people we can have on each floor using the 11 cubic metre rule, do I take out of the calucation the floor space occupied by meeting rooms, toilets and kitchens?

- When looking at the numbers of toilets that we have should I be concerned that although we have enough toilets for everyone, the fact that we are a workforce dominated by women means that the split is not even and the men have many more toilets than the women? There isn't a lot we can do about it, but it would be good to have some sort of answer should I be asked.

- When I give a final number of how people we can have on each floor what calculation should take precedence? The reason I ask is that in terms of our Fire Risk Assessment we have calculated no more than 240 per floor (based on low risk enviroment, 2 exits, distance to travel and width of doors). I suspect however that once I have worked out the 11 cubic metre calculation, this may allow more than 240 which, for obvious reasons I do not want to allow and I need to make this clear in my paper - fire safety must take precedence.

Any help would be much appreciated,

JMK
PhilBeale  
#2 Posted : 08 September 2010 12:04:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

According to approved document B fire safety.

"Area excludes stair enclosures, lifts sanitary accommodation and any other fixed part of the building structure (but counters and display units etc should not be excluded)".

So i would exclude toilets and meeting rooms and kitchens but refer to the fact that these have been excluded as part of you calculations. I'm still don't understand why it is calculated in in cube rather than area surely the footprint taken up is the most important figure rather then including and height?

approved document B refer to 6m2 per person for office use.

Phil
Bob Shillabeer  
#3 Posted : 08 September 2010 12:09:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

In the office I worked at we calculated the work space for both the workplace regs and the RRFSO purposes and of course complied with the lower space required. This was simply a thoretical calculation as we did not have enough people to exceeed the minimum anyway but the calculation was still done to demonstrate compliance. The workplace calculation is the first point of call and any others such as fire safety are secondary but could be more restrictive. Give them both standards.
jmk  
#4 Posted : 08 September 2010 14:43:00(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
jmk

Bob - surprised that you say the workplace calculation would take precedence. Surely RRFSO calculations would take priority?

But in reference to my orginal post, do I include the areas taken up by meeting rms, toilets etc when calculting space under the Workplace regs?

And does an unequal toilet divide matter?

Safety Smurf  
#5 Posted : 08 September 2010 14:59:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

jmk,
As I understand it. for the purposes of the work place regs you would need to calculate each room individually and so meeting rooms and toilets should not factor in your calculation (in fact meeting rooms are specifically excluded in the ACOP)
Ken Slack  
#6 Posted : 08 September 2010 16:01:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

INDG244

'Room dimensions and space Workrooms should have enough free space to allow people to move about with ease. The volume of the room when empty, divided by the number of people normally working in it, should be at least 11 cubic metres. All or part of a room over 3.0 m high should be counted as 3.0 m high. 11 cubic metres per person is a minimum and may be insufficient depending on the layout, contents and the nature of the work'

Remember that the 11m rule is a minimum, per person, per room, so I would calculate it per room then allow for any other factors
jmk  
#7 Posted : 08 September 2010 16:08:09(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
jmk

We are completely open plan - the only rooms are meeting rooms. But thanks Ken, I do take your point.
Safety Smurf  
#8 Posted : 08 September 2010 16:22:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

jmk wrote:
We are completely open plan - the only rooms are meeting rooms. But thanks Ken, I do take your point.


Open plan toilets! ;-)
Bob Shillabeer  
#9 Posted : 08 September 2010 19:38:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

I am not saying the workplace calcualtion would take precedence, just it is the first place to do the calculation. If you do not meet the workplace requirement you ar breaking the basic condition. The RRFSO calculation would bresult in a probable smaller result so atart at the base and work up. You may find that the work space you have meets both sets of legislation good luck if you do. But the minimum you must meet is the workplce regulations, anything else is secdondary ( please dont misunderstand the term secondary)
Bob Shillabeer  
#10 Posted : 08 September 2010 19:39:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

PS ignore the other rooms such as meting rooms and toilets as they are outside the measurement of room working space.
Bob Shillabeer  
#11 Posted : 08 September 2010 19:40:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

PS ignore the other rooms such as meting rooms and toilets as they are outside the measurement of room working space.
Ron Hunter  
#12 Posted : 09 September 2010 00:01:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

11m3 rule is pretty much useless.
You may find this paper of interest:
http://www2.swale.gov.uk...4155A388C67F4B56B618.pdf

In my own organisation, 8m2 pp for open plan (based on total floor area) is the norm (does vary a bit depending on the style of building though). Works well in terms of space, but useless in terms of noise and distraction.
Bob Shillabeer  
#13 Posted : 09 September 2010 12:33:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Ron, you say you use a square of 8m this is really more than the 11 cubic meters when you add the 3 meters hight so you are in fact over the legal minimum so what is your point???
Ron Hunter  
#14 Posted : 09 September 2010 12:48:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

My point, Bob, is that the original poster said "any help appreciated".
Here was me thinking I was being helpful and all......................................
Bob Shillabeer  
#15 Posted : 09 September 2010 14:21:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

I appreciate what you are saying Ron but the legal minimum must be met or you will face possible legal action. Anything that suggests doing more is very good as long as it meets the legal minimum you are on the right side of the law. Whatever one says there is a legal duty to comply with the law.
kev3152  
#16 Posted : 09 September 2010 15:11:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kev3152

To address the question about sanitary conveniences the ACOP to the Regulations stipulates the following MINIMA for numbers of people at work (regardless of gender);
1 to 5 = 1 WC + 1 washstation,
6 to 25 = 2 WCs + 2 washstations,
26 to 50 =3 WCs + 3 ,
51 to 75 = 4 WCs +4,
76 to 100 = 5WCs + 5.

You should calculate 1 extra Wc and washstation for every 25 people above 100. If you do that for each gender you shoud be able to calculate your worst case scenario. There's a separate calculation for mens toilets fitted with urinals but I guess your main concern is to ensure that any imbalance doesn't disadvantage the ladies.

As far as the 11 cubic meters is concerned I always find it useful to remember that the old OSRP Act used 40 sq. ft as a minimum. If you convert that to metric it becomes 3.7 sq m, which multiplied by 3.0 m high becomes 11.1 cubic metres, (which you can round down to 11 cu m for convenience). So, you've got a space 8ft x 5 ft. Not much to write home about there. As Ron states when you're planning you should be looking at 8 to 10 cu m.
Ron Hunter  
#17 Posted : 09 September 2010 15:41:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Assuming kev and I are on the same wavelength, he means square metres and not cubic metres.
Just checking with my people again and figures used are actually 8.5m2 for open plan and 12m2 for cellular accom.
Bob Shillabeer  
#18 Posted : 09 September 2010 16:03:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

There seems to be an argument about square metres and cubic metres, Square meters simple covers an area of ground and does not say anything about capacity of the space concerned. Cubic metres however, covers the overall space available. Important to this is the hight of the room which gives the room available to work. The Workplace Regs specify cubic meters and has a limit of three metres in hight. Therefore three cubic meters is simply one meter by three meters by one meter, six cubic meters is in terms of the regs is two meters by three meters by by one meter. Therefore 11 cubic meters is as kev says 3.7 meters by 3.7 meters by 3 meters. Not that large an area but it is the legal minimum. The original question was which is the one that needs to be met. I suggest the minimum one must be met but exeeded where other legislation specifically calls for it.
Ron Hunter  
#19 Posted : 09 September 2010 23:29:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Err..........3.7 x 3.7 x 3 = .........just over 41 cubic metres. I think you threw in and extra 3.7 there, Bob!
kev3152  
#20 Posted : 10 September 2010 13:13:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kev3152

Mea culpa, indeed I meant 8 sq. metres not cubic metres. (As my old gran said as metrification rapidly approached "I've already got gas and electric meters, I can't be doing with any more").
Bob Shillabeer  
#21 Posted : 10 September 2010 16:39:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Oops you are right, got carried away by using to many 3.7s. Should have been 3.7 X 3 X 1 which works out (according to my calculator) 11.1 cubic meters.
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