Rank: Forum user 
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We are an contractor that carries out repairs on houses, sometimes with the people still living inside them.
Now I have done a lot of research with regard to CRB checks and it seems to me we do not need, or have the right to carry out such checks. The CRB have confirmed this to me in an email. Although we may go into locations where children and people may be, we are not having anything to do with them directly (our own health and safety policies stipulate that while we are in a property the occupants are kept well away from our working).
Prior to me starting with the company we were being well and truely ripped off by a "umbrella organisation" that were carrying out "enhanced checks" for all our employees on the premise that we may be working with "vunerable adults" or "children".
We may well be in the same place as these people but they are certainly not our responsibility or part of our undertaking.
It seems that every tender for work document we now fill in has a requirement for CRB checks to be carried out!
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Rank: Forum user
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zoltangera,
I agree that your employees are not working with children or vulnerable adults but I suppose the companies issueing the tenders are thinking that, because you will be working in the vulnerable person's home an employee might be alone with a child for a period of time and there is therefore a risk.
I would suggest that you establish the policy that there will always be an appropriate adult present while you are working in the premises unless you have more than 1 employee present at all times. If you can do that, and monitor to establish evidence that the policy is followed, then you should not need to have disclosure checks done.
Thre is a danger of everybody going completely OTT on this one. The disclosure checks are only intended for people actually working with children and not for those who may have incidental contact with children in the course of their work. If that were the case we might all need to have disclosure checks done!
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Rank: New forum user
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I agree with both regarding checks not being needed, the good process of checking those who have the opportunity to abuse someone is overshadowed by many customers including some LEAs insisting they are carried out before any worker is allowed on site so service providers either follow their requirements or loose the work or upset the customer if its a warranty job . Typically a service engineer will be working on their product at infrequent intervals, never with children near them so risk is zero unless the engineer goes crazy which nothing will cover. The signs are understanding what CRB is for and proportionality is lost and many in the service sector are moaning it is unnecessary buy can't be bothered to debate so obey blanket rules.
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Rank: Forum user
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The thing that is doing my head in is that a client is screaming for CRB checks for our engineers where we should not,or an umbrella organisation, be allowed to ask for checks (We are not one of the professions, offices, employments, work or occupations listed in the Exceptions Order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974).
The following is from the CRB website;
"CRB checks cannot be obtained by members of the public directly but are only available to organisations and only for those professions, offices, employments, work and occupations listed in the Exceptions Order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974."
The trouble is what do I do, the company has had them done before (Contradicts above) by an umbrella organisation who stated to me that they carried out "enhanced checks" (the dearer ones) because of the information gave to them by a previous employee.
example of a leading question
"could you be carrying out work in a care home or school?"
As soon as a "yes" to could be working at a school or care home is mentioned the ££££ signs start flashing.
An organisation like ours can work in a school or a care home (this is not what we normally do anyway) and not require a CRB check!!!!
A milkman, paperboy, postman, etc can all carry out work in a care home, and as somebody mentioned above maybe we should all get CRB checked just to be on the safe side!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Unfortunate that the over-zealous "PC Brigade" have taken a grip on these Disclosure Procedures and seek to apply them way beyond need. Often this is an LA strapped for cash adding wholly unncessary on-costs (and delays) to contracts. Moreover, a whole raft of unsuccessful tenderers are also encouraged to do the same via the tender process.
This is being applied to those cutting the grass in school playing fields!
All of this tends to block the whole system and delay the people who justifiably require this (teachers, care professionals etc.) from getting on with the job.
I pity the poor contractors who must be banging heads on walls with this one. The situation can be as "conkers bonkers" as it gets, but not apparently newsworthy.
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Rank: Forum user
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LA ect BACKSIDE COVERING !!!!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Whatever happened to informed debate? I have quickly selected the first website from a search engine which happens to be an LA site. It gives some fact based guidance which might help you to understand why checks are required. Open the page then click on the link to the guidance. http://www.eastsussex.go...es/crb/crbcontractor.htmNote especially that it outlines children AND vulnerable adults and also identifies specified places. This whole area is probably the most misunderstood aspect of protecting vulnerable groups and that builds myths quicker than for H&S! I hope it will help you to get to an understanding of what you are being asked to do, why you may be required to do so and possibly even give you the pointer to challenge the need from a fact based argument. p48
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Rank: Super forum user
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Quote:Enhanced checks are for posts involving work in a regulated activity for a regulated activity provider with children or vulnerable adults. In general, the type of work will involve regularly caring for, supervising, training or being in sole charge of such people. Examples include a Teacher, Scout or Guide leader. Enhanced checks are also issued for certain statutory purposes such as gaming and lottery licences.
Enhanced checks contain the same information as Standard checks but with the addition of a check of the new barred lists if requested and any locally held police force information considered relevant to the job role, by Chief Police Officer(s) http://www.crb.homeoffic...levels_of_crb_check.aspxBut standard checks do not include spent convictions, hence the need for enhanced checks.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Informed debate? Gone I think! Thundercliffe - LAs are often stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place, unable to please the likes of many regardless of what they do or don't do. No doubt you would be the first to complain where an LA didn't carry out checks and that this failure resulted in a vulnerable person being abused or whatever. Could you add some clarity to your comment?
Zolt - I am slightly confused at #1 "We may well be in the same place as these people but they are certainly not our responsibility or part of our undertaking". I am not sure which people you mean, the contractors or the tenants, but I suggest that you do have some responsibility for both of these groups and that you owe both groups S3 duties; don't you?
While you may not have a 'right' to carry out these checks, you may well have a duty or be acting responsibly and reasonably in doing so. If an employer requires a disclosure and the employee refuses then the employer may well be within their rights to draw a conclusion from that, and may not offer work, restrict the work that they do or possibly even dismiss.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Often the only way round this is to have a CRB checked person actually supervising the work personally - Unfortunately as soon as you put working near vulnerable persons and unsupervised together you arrive at enhanced CRB. It was badly framed law but we are stuck with it.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob, I agree that, like much legislation, it is far from perfect. However, it is a simple concept that checks for previous and controls situations where access to vulnerable groups or information about vulnerable groups is relevant.
Sadly, too many see this solely as a control, or even prevention, of paedophile activity and it is so much more than that.
We need to bust the myths that surround these controls.
p48
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Rank: Super forum user
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CRB and volunteer parents etc
Are parents and the like who volunteer to underake works in schools via the headteacher etc CRB'd; I doubt it! [Yep we are usually talking about at school closure times but I know that vulnerable people are present!]
I have even heard that early release criminals [via the new government scheems], those made to work who have been on the dole etc and ASBOW's are not /are not to be CRB'd even though the person next to them working on the same job etc who have not been a criminal etc are CRB'd! - Please put me right if I am wrong somebody!
I was even told that as I am H&Safety I do not need to be CRB'd!!!!
The end point being is that if your client/boss etc wants you to be CRB'b, to wear fuzzy hats, to have yellow hair etc then if you want the work you have to comply!
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Rank: Super forum user
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I would doubt that any of comments are based in fact by which I mean the reality was somewhat different.
I will try to put some links up later to some common myths but for now a lot of the issues arise from the blanket rule approach used by many if not most organisations. Dont need to understand it, it is much simpler to control and reduces the risks to them. Rather like the hard hat rules, just wear it is easier than assessing and controlling risks on a unique basis. One see some very strange situations as a result of that rule as well.
p48
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Rank: Forum user
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Phil - Yes we do have duties have you rightly say under the HSAW act (hence we keep all members of the public away from any work situation) but we are talking about CRB where we do not.
"While you may not have a 'right' to carry out these checks, you may well have a duty or be acting responsibly and reasonably in doing so".
The crux of the matter is we or an "umbrella organisation" CANNOT apply for the checks under CRB legislation. Your type of work has to be one listed under the excepted professions, offices and employments referred to in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975.
Ours does not we should not be able to get CRB checks done at all.
I have an email from CRB confirming that checks for us are not necessary.
The "umbrella organisation" actually carried out "enhanced checks" which by admittance on their own website is for the likes of doctors, teachers etc.
The following is from the home office guidance for CRB
"Wasim applies to volunteer in his local hospital,
volunteering in a hospital garden in which he will not
have access to patients, but may have to walk through
several wards to get to his volunteering placement.
Can and should a CRB check be requested?
No – Although Wasim has access to patients, his
role is not covered by any Disclosure Access
Category code and there is no legal requirement for
a check. His contact with patients is also not in the
course of his normal duties."
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Rank: Forum user
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The categories listed on the CRB website represent the professions, offices, employments, work and occupations that are known as the exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Organisations registered with the CRB CAN ONLY APPLY for a CRB Check if the position is included in this list. The code number listed next to each section refers to the Disclosure Access Category Code. http://www.crb.homeoffic...ance/eligible_posts.aspx
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Rank: Forum user
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Dear ***** ********,
Thank you for your email.
I would like to open by clarifying that the CRB certainly do not advise that organisations perform blanket checks on their staff.
From the information you have provided there is no eligibility for your electricians to submit an application form for any level of check as they are not in sole charge of and/or responsible for the individuals whose houses they are working at.
As such, we advise that requests, such as has been made of your company, should be not be included in contractual agreements.
Yours sincerely,
****** ********
CRB Customer Services
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Rank: Super forum user
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But.
Many employers insist on enhanced disclosure because it allows access to information not supplied in a standard disclosure.
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Rank: Super forum user
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As part of some tenders we are doing we have to have enhanced CRB checks as it's aprt of a Building Schools for the future gubbins (well the ones the current incumbents at 10 Downing St haven't cancelled)
Current cost is £36 for enhanced or £26 for standard.
Think Umbrella companies charge anything from £0 (if you are working on their behalf and they ask for it) to £20 odd...
Volunteers i believe are free?
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Rank: Forum user
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I have a client who's employees work in schools, and other local authority premises. The main contractor demands that all personnel from my client must have CRB checks undertaken, and these will only be accepted in the LA's area.
If the employees work in another area of the country, for the same main contractor, the CRB check will not be acceptable in that area.
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Rank: Forum user
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Hally wrote:As part of some tenders we are doing we have to have enhanced CRB checks as it's aprt of a Building Schools for the future gubbins (well the ones the current incumbents at 10 Downing St haven't cancelled)
Current cost is £36 for enhanced or £26 for standard.
Think Umbrella companies charge anything from £0 (if you are working on their behalf and they ask for it) to £20 odd...
Volunteers i believe are free? Below is what the CRB say about "enhanced checks". Are you really "regularly caring for, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children or vulnerable adults"? This is the highest level of check available to anyone involved in regularly caring for, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children or vulnerable adults. It is also available in certain licensing purposes and judicial appointments. Enhanced Disclosures contain the same information as the Standard Disclosure but with the addition.......
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Rank: Forum user
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Cooper35245 wrote:I have a client who's employees work in schools, and other local authority premises. The main contractor demands that all personnel from my client must have CRB checks undertaken, and these will only be accepted in the LA's area.
If the employees work in another area of the country, for the same main contractor, the CRB check will not be acceptable in that area. Also from the CRB website...... "It should be noted that it is illegal to insist that a CRB check forms part of a tender, unless the services provided meet the criteria for an eligible CRB check as defined by the Exceptions Order of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974." To note: CRB regularly receives enquiries regarding checks being a mandatory requirement when tendering for contracts. Organisations insist that a condition of a tender bid is that all staff will be CRB checked. In many cases the work or services of the contract would not require a CRB check. A familiar misconception surrounds contractors whose services involve working in council or private dwellings and thus assume that individuals living alone, especially the elderly, are all vulnerable.
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Rank: Forum user
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...and elf and safety gets a bad press....pppppfffffttttttt.
This CRB nonsense does my nut.....we will have to get checks done or not get the work...the "umbrella company" will falsely put us under a disclosure code (we will be 01 or 02, as having a regulated activity such as teaching or care work) for enhanced checks (required for doctors, teachers etc).
The annoying thing is that it is a LA who are asking for the checks...even though it is not lawful for them to do so...and I've just got to go ahead and get them....paying £££££s in the process.
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Rank: Super forum user
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It is all very well to get a CRB email but if you read between the lines they are only stating that you should not do blanket checks on your employees - only do checks on those who require them. The ultimate answer is to persuade the authority either to remove the tenants during working hours or to require an adult guardiann of some form to be present during work, this is the course I have often followed.
The comment that it is illegal to include this in contracts is interesting and I will certainly look again at the detail of the legislation.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Pete, with respect, posting a link to a typical LA "guide" on this subject does not necessarily provide an informed view. Many of these LAs are getting it wrong. Dressing up misinformation in a well-formatted official looking document doesn't make it any more correct.
My own observations on this topic thread are factual and based on first-hand knowledge.
This is not the time for Government Bodies to be wasting money.
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Rank: Forum user
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Phil Rose......clarification on why i think LA have a backside covering policy...Security officers have a standard CRB disclosue for an SIA licence...and can work at the schools as security.....they come into conact with young vulnerable people most of the day.....the gardeners and grounds maintainance who very raely come into contact with any one have to have Full disclosure CRB to cut the grass and mow the lawn. Its easier for them to make the sub contractors comply with everything rather than administrate properly (I fully agree with the crb checks for people who have contact with vulnerable peple)
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