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John O'Rourke  
#1 Posted : 12 November 2010 11:36:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
John O'Rourke

Can someone offer advice on wearing Safety Restraints on a scissors lifts. The hired personnell scissors lift that we are using has no anchor point for a lanyard, however the client is insisting on the operatives wearing harnesses. I have contacted the hire company who were very helpful , however,none of their lifts of this size have anchor points WAH hierarchy has been followed in the selection of the equipment. Platform height is around 1.75 metres.
David Jones  
#2 Posted : 12 November 2010 11:42:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Jones

Based on the work height, I assume that you would be using work positioning lanyards rather than fall aresst (as there is probably insufficient distance for it to deploy in the event of a fall). Therefore you should not really be putting any laod on the lanyard as such, as it would be merely preventing you trying to stray too far. Thus it is probably acceptable to hook onto the railing - two lanyards conected on opposite sides of the platform thus preventing trhe operative from stepping out.
Steve Sedgwick  
#3 Posted : 12 November 2010 14:40:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

Agree that a restraint lanyard could be attached to the guard rail here to PREVENT fall, but not as fall protection to ARREST a falling person. I dont understand the comment about "2 landyards connected on the opposite side of the platform". Use an adjustable lanyard and keep it as short as possible. Steve
John O'Rourke  
#4 Posted : 12 November 2010 15:23:42(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
John O'Rourke

Thanks for the replies, one point: I did not think you could attach anything to the guardrail.
frankc  
#5 Posted : 12 November 2010 18:28:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Originally Posted by: John O' Go to Quoted Post
Can someone offer advice on wearing Safety Restraints on a scissors lifts. The hired personnell scissors lift that we are using has no anchor point for a lanyard, however the client is insisting on the operatives wearing harnesses. I have contacted the hire company who were very helpful , however,none of their lifts of this size have anchor points WAH hierarchy has been followed in the selection of the equipment. Platform height is around 1.75 metres.
There is no legal requirement to wear a restraint in a scissor lift. Tell the client your R/A has confirmed there is no requirement for them and even the hire company don't have anchor points in the type you are planning on usng. This will either a) leave your client accepting your method of work or b) you will have to try another hire company that has anchor points in their scissor lifts. Whatever outcome, don't attach your restraint to the handrail.
Steve Sedgwick  
#6 Posted : 12 November 2010 19:58:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

I thought that there would be a reaction to me suggesting the use of the guard rail to attach a RESTRAINT lanyard to. There is no prescriptive legislation for most things, but best practice on this subject will be found from the International Access Platform Association. The IPAF are the lead body for guidance in this area. Their guidance states that the restraint lanyard should be attached to a "suitable" anchor point. So we have to determine if the guard rail is suitable for this purpose ie risk assessment. I would be interested to any guidance to support frankc,s point on this, what guidance, acop or regulation states that a guard rail is not a suitable anchor for RESTRAINT. This may help with the debate
Steve Sedgwick  
#7 Posted : 12 November 2010 20:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

Don't know what happened then but I wasn't ready to send the last post, didn't even spell check. Here's the link that I meant to attach http://www.ipaf.org/file.../documents/en/H10505.pdf Steve
frankc  
#8 Posted : 12 November 2010 21:12:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Steve Sedgwick wrote:
Their guidance states that the restraint lanyard should be attached to a "suitable" anchor point. So we have to determine if the guard rail is suitable for this purpose ie risk assessment. I would be interested to any guidance to support frankc,s point on this, what guidance, acop or regulation states that a guard rail is not a suitable anchor for RESTRAINT. This may help with the debate
Hi Steve, i haven't got suitable guidance to back my statement up (as yet) however i would definitely assume a 'suitable anchor' is something which is designed to accept a certain loading should it be required. I wouldn't have thought a hand rail is designed for that purpose.
David Bannister  
#9 Posted : 13 November 2010 13:00:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

David Jones wrote:
Based on the work height, I assume that you would be using work positioning lanyards rather than fall aresst (as there is probably insufficient distance for it to deploy in the event of a fall). Therefore you should not really be putting any laod on the lanyard as such, as it would be merely preventing you trying to stray too far. Thus it is probably acceptable to hook onto the railing - two lanyards conected on opposite sides of the platform thus preventing trhe operative from stepping out.
Sounds sensible to me. The restraint system is purely to stop anybody stepping out of the cage, so no appreciable load. 2 opposing lanyards will allow sufficient lateral movement to do the job. However, pressing your R/A conclusion that no tethering is necessary in a scissor lift tin the circumstances you are using it seems a sensible way forward, possibly educating your client in the process.
boblewis  
#10 Posted : 13 November 2010 17:35:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

IPAF documkents refer to MEWPS in general terms and I haqve yet to find any need to use even restraints on a scissor lift when properly used and supervised. If you believe restrainbts are required there is something wrong with either competence, supervision or the work environment. Of course if it comes down to the client insisting on superfluous measures it comes down to the golden rule - He has the gold so he sets the rules. In this case use the handrails but insist on the guys being properly trained and supervised never to climb on handrails or drive over rough / unstable ground. As I have said before on many occassions - if you believe harnesses are required on scissorlifts then the quid pro quo is that they are also needed on all scaffolds by dint of the same logic process! Bob
Steve Sedgwick  
#11 Posted : 13 November 2010 19:47:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

We all agree on that point then, restraint or fall protection is not normally required for sissor lift work Steve
boblewis  
#12 Posted : 13 November 2010 21:02:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Yep we agree - Only awkward clients and PCs will drive this requirement forward. Bob
John O'Rourke  
#13 Posted : 15 November 2010 09:08:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
John O'Rourke

Thank you to all that replied to my query. Some very good advice was forthcoming. I have downloaded the technical advice from IPAF and forwarded it to the client. Hopefully it will be accepted. I wiil let you know. PS this was my first post ( query ). Delighted with the response. Regards John
frankc  
#14 Posted : 15 November 2010 17:58:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Steve Sedgwick wrote:
We all agree on that point then, restraint or fall protection is not normally required for sissor lift work Steve
I agree it's unnecessary to use a lanyard in a scissor lift but i'm still not convinced it is ok to use the handrail as an anchor point. Can the scissor lift be operated from the point of restraint or is a 2nd person required to operate it?
Steve Sedgwick  
#15 Posted : 15 November 2010 18:29:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

frankc we have answered Johns post satisfactorily. If we start dealing with your other 3 points in this post it may cause some confusion. It would be better to start a new post for those 3 points. Steve
frankc  
#16 Posted : 15 November 2010 19:03:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

I'll leave it Steve. It might just be the way i'm looking at it.
firesafety101  
#17 Posted : 15 November 2010 22:32:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I would suggest there is no anchor point in a scissor lift because it is not required. Correct training and supervision should result in correct operation, feet on the floor at all times. I don't see how Frankc is confusing the issue as he is only trying to confirm best practice. Why do you want a lanyard if it is not required? The handrail is not an anchor point so don't use it as one. Inform the client of the Regs and guidance.
mattyturton  
#18 Posted : 16 November 2010 13:37:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mattyturton

Sorry for the late posting here, I have only just read the thread. The handrail of a scissor lift is not designed or built to take any kind of shock load, and to achieve fall restraint from a scissor lift guard rail is a very difficult task! The handrail only needs to be 1100mm high to enable work to be carried out without the aid of a harness. I have seen a lot of scissor lifts with anchor points in the flooring which allow for fall restraint with the correct lanyard being worn, however the points are rarely tested and in my opinion un-needed.
Fletcher  
#19 Posted : 16 November 2010 16:28:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Fletcher

Evening, Agree with Bob & Steve as long as the users feet are on the floor of the scissor lift and the SL is correctly positioned for the work they cannot fall out. Your RA, operative's training and SSoW will tell your client that. Client education and a Lord Young over complication (this time by the client)? Take Care
Darrington36123  
#20 Posted : 16 November 2010 16:58:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Darrington36123

Risk Assessment, Supervision, Competent Workers for task and good instruction not necessarily in that order, that's all folks! Restraint at 1.75m lets get real. I understand W at H can be dangerous and remains the biggest killer, but lets bring H&S back to the NoRM.
Rick Warner  
#21 Posted : 16 November 2010 19:17:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Rick Warner

Groups: Construction , IOSH member, Merseyside, Registered user I would suggest there is no anchor point in a scissor lift because it is not required. Correct training and supervision should result in correct operation, feet on the floor at all times. I don't see how Frankc is confusing the issue as he is only trying to confirm best practice. Why do you want a lanyard if it is not required? The handrail is not an anchor point so don't use it as one. Inform the client of the Regs and guidance. Totally agree with Chris!
Rick Warner  
#22 Posted : 16 November 2010 19:21:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Rick Warner

Although company policies differ (god knows why) i thought that we were all supposed to be reading from the same song sheet as it were, dont agrre with a companies policy or methods of work, if you know that they are not as per legislation, or safe practices. If you have carried out your Risk Assessment and have come to the conclusion that harnesses are not required, then stand your ground, it's you and your company who are accountable for your employees, not your clients!
boblewis  
#23 Posted : 16 November 2010 22:21:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

As I have said already though - if you want the money the client can set the rules - Like it or not. This is the position that drives many in construction to distraction and it often starts with the advice and ideas of the clients safety adviser!! Bob
MB1  
#24 Posted : 17 November 2010 10:08:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

I had dealings in with a past employer that the head of h&s introduced the same policy for use of harness/restraint whilst using a scissors lift. My argument was that it was only introduced in response to a team being caught out by a HSE inspector when he attempted to remove himself from the lift onto part of a roof! The fact of having training, instruction, method statement & risk assessment that this must not happen did actually occur. There is only so much you can put into ensuring the work is carried out in a safe manner without playing policeman etc and not practicable to be there in person at all times. We have to also be able to allow the employee some degree of responsibility and when such things occur to take swift & appropriate action even to the point of disciplinary action which of course requires full cooperation of senior management. The platform is designed in mind not to include restraint or fall arrest systems why add to it. If the client insists and you cannot compromise then consider hiring a unit that has an appropriate anchor point installed?
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