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messyshaw  
#1 Posted : 01 December 2010 20:13:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

It's 3pm on a freezing December afternoon and your fire alarm operates. Your business in in a city centre so 85% of staff & customers use public transport to reach you. Some of your staff, a few customers and three visitors leave immediately, but without the necessary winter outer clothing. They mill about at the assembly point as none has a vehicle or anywhere to shelter. You bring this small group inside the reception to keep warm. However, the incident escalates and demands a full evacuation. Later you learn that it's not possible for anyone to get back in today. Question: You've provided shelter in the initial stages to those in need, but cannot do so now that there's a complete evacuation of your business which is to last for 12+ hours. Is there any duty of care to those relevant persons who have been evacuated in regards to inclement weather?? The RR(FS)O 2005 only requires the responsible person to ensure the safety of persons in respect of harm caused by fire. So what legislation (if any) applies to those evacuated in freezing/wet weather - particularly non staff- in regards for duty of care provisions???
Bob Shillabeer  
#2 Posted : 01 December 2010 20:33:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

In short, yes, you have an ongoing duty of care to your employees and visitors. The office is you say in a built up area, therefore it is not that hard to instruct staff and visitors to disperse to a place where warmth etc is available. If the interuption is as you say 12+ hours you would decide to send staff and visitors home for the day with instructions to telephone about work the next day. This is not covered under the RRFSO because it is not relevent to the meaning of that piece of law. There are other legal requirements that cover this aspect and there are business continuity issues that are able to deal with this position. I suggest you take a look at the business continuity aspect as not only fire can cause incidents such as this.
David Bannister  
#3 Posted : 01 December 2010 22:33:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

I suspect that this scenario will have been considered by very few businesses. Yes there is a duty of care owed and this would in my opinion extend to providing protection from the elements. How this duty would be discharged is rightly something to be considered under a contingency plan and would depend on a variety of factors including age/ability of personnel, numbers involved, season/weather. I suspect that the person who raises this issue in a business continuity meeting is likely to get scornful comments at most times of the year but maybe tomorrow would receive a more interested hearing!
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 01 December 2010 22:54:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

The "Order" is not just about evacuation but prevention of fire prior to everything else, so evacuation is really the last resort. If a proper fra has been carried out this scenario will not happen. Yes I agree that something needs to be in place to look after your employees if they are evacuated especially in this current weather. 12+ hours means all will be sent home, it must be a very large fire.
bob youel  
#5 Posted : 02 December 2010 07:27:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

12 + hours is not an evacuation in an average city its an abandonment and as others have stated the best fire RA's will have accounted for this - however most of us would have missed the point noted in a day to day office type situation in a city. Additionally people do not dress for winter in this country so they may be standing at an assembly point in a summer skirt / trouser etc
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 02 December 2010 09:49:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Summer skirt - whatever turns you on Bob ha ha
stevie40  
#7 Posted : 02 December 2010 10:44:11(UTC)
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stevie40

messyshaw wrote:
Question: You've provided shelter in the initial stages to those in need, but cannot do so now that there's a complete evacuation of your business which is to last for 12+ hours. Is there any duty of care to those relevant persons who have been evacuated in regards to inclement weather??
This is being over analysed in my opinion. Keep things simple. Once it becomes clear that you are not going to be returning to your place of work, the management would release all the staff apart from their crisis management team (whether formally appointed or not). The crisis management team then decamp to a local hotel or nearby friendly business and set up a base of operations there.
David Bannister  
#8 Posted : 02 December 2010 12:18:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Stevie40, I took the point of the post to be that office workers in office attire will correctly have left their outdoor clothing/footwear in the cloakrooms when the evacuation alarm sounded. Once the evacuation is found to be a result of something which prevents re-entry after a reasonable time, what responsibility does the employer have to the cold and seriously inconvenienced evacuees? They may have no money to arrange transport, no car keys, totally inappropriate clothing etc etc. There are very sound business reasons to give them the support they need but this cannot be magicked on the spot. Is there a moral duty of care? Certainly. Legal? Probably but I leave that to legal experts.
stevie40  
#9 Posted : 02 December 2010 13:20:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

stuff4blokes - Point taken but I still maintain common sense would prevail. Decamp to nearby pub or hotel for warmth. for a major event preventing re-entry to building, it is likely the emergency services would be in attendance. They would provide blankets etc. Provision of hot drinks from local coffee shops, cafes etc. somebody would be carrying a wallet. Arrange for taxis to transport people home and charge to company or card. Those without house keys would stay at friends. Staff and managers would manage these arrangements on the day - it is not the sort of thing I feel you can plan in advance. Each member of staff will have their own requirements / responses and to impose a company wide rule would likely fail.
firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 02 December 2010 13:51:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I wonder what some people think the employer should do - have a supply of winter clothing available in case of an evacuation, and a supply of summer clothing, sun block and hats available in case the sun shines? Large fire last night in Chester - the neighberhood spent the night in a sports hall. Isn't that what would happen until all can travel home? The employer has a duty to ensure the workforce can evacuate safely to a place of ultimate safety - that's it.
SP900308  
#11 Posted : 02 December 2010 14:05:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

messyshaw, I bet if it was raining they would have grabbed their outdoor clothes!
FHS  
#12 Posted : 02 December 2010 17:01:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FHS

I have asked this question on a number of IOSH Managing Safely courses involving over 60 headteachers and not one school had any arrangements in place to deal with - in some cases 800+ pupils who would be unable to get home from school without buses, parents etc collecting them. Some schools were lucky enough to be close to Leisure Centres that could house them untill arrangements could be made for their collection but the rest had nothing to fall back on. Nothing like 800 or so feral school children rampaging through a local shopping centre at Christmas to focus your attention!!
messyshaw  
#13 Posted : 02 December 2010 17:28:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

stevie40 wrote:
Decamp to nearby pub or hotel for warmth. for a major event preventing re-entry to building, it is likely the emergency services would be in attendance. They would provide blankets etc. Provision of hot drinks from local coffee shops, cafes etc. somebody would be carrying a wallet. Arrange for taxis to transport people home and charge to company or card. Those without house keys would stay at friends. Staff and managers would manage these arrangements on the day - it is not the sort of thing I feel you can plan in advance. Each member of staff will have their own requirements / responses and to impose a company wide rule would likely fail.
Thank for everyone's ideas. All have their own merit and fit certain scenarios. However, not all circumstances are easy. Consider a building - again in a city centre where several hundred staff work overnight. Again, they may arrive at the assembly point with insufficient clothing if they evacuated from a location away from their usual work location and didn't get a chance to grab their coat. At 03:00 there are not many suitable locations to house several hundred people. Few hotels would be interested to assist for a bog standard evacuation. Cab journeys for hundreds? For those who think this is unlikely, there are numerous buildings which operate with large numbers of people 24/7, so it is not far fetched. Neither is the thought of an evacuation to last 60 - 90 minutes (with shirt-sleeved staff huddled in the rain/cold) before even the smallest incident to be dealt with. There's lots of talk about duty of care - but under what legislation?
firesafety101  
#14 Posted : 02 December 2010 18:17:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

It is difficult to imagine a fire evacuation taking so long before either the all clear or a decision to abandon ship. What about a bomb scenario?
Bob Shillabeer  
#15 Posted : 02 December 2010 19:12:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

I have read with interest some of the postings added today, and quite frankly they are simply histeria. After the intitial evacuation of the building to a place of safety the emergency as far as fire is concerned is under control. There then needs to be an assessment of how long the situation will last, if it is ongoing other arrangements need to be taken to move people to a secure location to prevent any other hazards becoming a reality. This could mean sending people home or locating them in another building, both options need some organisation as some people will not have facilities to travel home (money etc) or clothing to protect them from the cold. All these should be catered for in a disaster recovery plan. If your organisation has no disaster recovery arrangements in place I suggest you ask your manager about how such a crisis wil be managed from a staff safety point of view.
descarte8  
#16 Posted : 03 December 2010 09:31:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
descarte8

[Rhetorical] question please feel free to ignore but dont leisure centres / public swimming pools have to have blankets etc. in place for evacuation of people who may be wet and half nekked? Is this covered by seperate legislation or via the FRA
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