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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:03:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Has anyone come across an employer deciding to comply with regulations but not best practice? Can anyone define Best Practice? Is Best Practice almost the same as Regulation?
Andrew W Walker  
#2 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:30:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

My employer complies with PUWER & LOLER with regard to the FLT, however, there are parts of HSG6 that are disregarded, in particular Section 45, the key to the FLT is left in all the time and when not in use is parked where the operator left it. The only time it is in a designated area is when its on charge. Is this the type of example you are looking for? Andy
Guru  
#3 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:30:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

‘Good practice’, as understood and used by HSE, can be distinguished from the term ‘best practice’ which usually means a standard of risk control above the legal minimum. http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/alarp2.htm
David Bannister  
#4 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:31:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Chris, I suggest that Best Practice is more aligned to "state of the art" whereas regulatory compliance is closer to "the minimum required to avoid prosecution", between which there is often much space. When insurers are involved, they may require a policyholder to comply with statutory duties and merely recommend that they achieve best practice in a particular area. Perhaps this can be illustrated (in an extreme hypothetical example) by the level of competent advice available to an employer. A part-time safety officer with an entry-level qualification and minimal experience may be sufficient to satisfy HSE that a particular employer is complying with MHSW Reg 7. Best practice would be to have a full time team with CMIOSHs.
Jon B  
#5 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:48:48(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

In my view by applying best practice you would be using sophisicated levels of control (allowing for reasonable practicality) and achieving complinace with the regualtion at the higest level. You can still achieve compliance using lower levels of control and in my expereince 'best practice' solution sometimes gives way to 'lowest cost' Take for example dust control, CoSHH says we must protect our employees and advises a number of ways to achieve this. I advise that it would be that best practice to use LEV. The employer disagrees on grounds of costs and decides to implement an RPE -policy (despite its limitations and long term costs). We are controlling exposure and acheiving minimum compliance but have not (in my view) employed best practice.
teh_boy  
#6 Posted : 10 January 2011 15:56:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

I am sure best practice is defined within COMAH where there is a much greater driver towards ALARP. On a plant I worked on we had three reactors, two met legislative requirements and were not unlike others you would find throughout Europe. One was new and all singing all dancing. The HSE insisted that we had set our own best practice and should bring the other two reactors upto the same specification. Another example off the top of my head, changing hard hats, we always used to change them every two years as a matter of course, manufacturers guidance stated 5. It was 'best practice' for chemical industry, but not law.
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:12:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

teh_boy off the top of my head, changing hard hats, I like that
firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:17:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

As an example where would you put Construction Information Sheet No 36 on Silica? Is this a guide to regulation or suggested best practice? Or perhaps neither?
Heather Collins  
#9 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:22:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

"This leaflet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do." So the answer is both.... Some bits of the leaflet give guidance on Regulations, other bits suggest what good practice might be like, some of the good practice may be considered the industry best practice. What context has the original question been asked in Chris?
teh_boy  
#10 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:24:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

ChrisBurns wrote:
teh_boy off the top of my head, changing hard hats, I like that
:) No pun intended, but it's cheered me up on this madly wet Monday.... I haven't read it but guess the answer is... COSHH = the law Info sheet 36, is how you might like to comply with the law... There may be other ways but you would need to prove you meet or exceed the guidance requirements, and of course the requirements of COSHH.
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:24:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

This link is a best practice guide re MEWPs. I would think that with all the support on the front page it should be the industry standard, what do you think? http://www.ipaf.org/file...nts/en/MEWP_BPG_2010.pdf
firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:27:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Heather, I have a client who I do site safety inspections for and they have asked me to lower my standard and just stick to Regulations. Some of my inspection is based on best practice guidance and they see this as over the top.
chris.packham  
#13 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:33:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

CATNAP vs BATAOS Cheapest Available Technology Narrowly Avoiding Prosecution Best Available Technology Achieving Optimum Standards Chris
Steve Sedgwick  
#14 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:41:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Sedgwick

My view is that the objective of "Best Practice" is hardly achievable. If we shoot for "Best Practice" how will we know when we have achieved it; how can we be sure that it is the best. There could be something better that we are not aware of. Semantics maybe, but I would sooner aim for "Good Practice", it is easier to sell as a management objective. I see good practice as compliance with the law. Steve
firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:43:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

So as long as we CATNAP (thanks Chris) that's all we need to do.
Ron Hunter  
#16 Posted : 10 January 2011 16:56:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Chris, If only things were so simple. As most of the Regulations are goal setting as opposed to prescriptive, we cannot "stick to the Regulations" these days. Even ACoPs leave room for detail and different approaches to compliance. As for the CIS on silica, this is guidance the HSE would refer to in the context and potentail critique of your COSHH Assessment. Failure to "comply" with that Guidance could result in an IN. HSE routinely refer to their Guidance (as opposed to ACoP) in INs they issue. What status that "guidance" then? Either way, you'll need a VERY convincing argument to justify not complying with that standard. in the context of silica, I don't believe such an argument will exist.
firesafety101  
#17 Posted : 10 January 2011 17:02:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

All good replies, thanks. Without getting into a long discussion about PAT (again) portable electrical equipment tests are recommendation. However there is a Requirement to test work equipment, and further guidance re electricity at work. Can someone point me to any direct requirement for regular testing of such equipment?
Ron Hunter  
#18 Posted : 10 January 2011 23:26:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The requirement in law is to ensure (as with any work equipment) is to ensure appliances and systems are maintained in a safe condition. Testing is a simple way of compliance.
LiKaSingTimothy45718  
#19 Posted : 11 January 2011 00:43:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
LiKaSingTimothy45718

stuff4blokes wrote:
Chris, I suggest that Best Practice is more aligned to "state of the art" whereas regulatory compliance is closer to "the minimum required to avoid prosecution", between which there is often much space. When insurers are involved, they may require a policyholder to comply with statutory duties and merely recommend that they achieve best practice in a particular area. Perhaps this can be illustrated (in an extreme hypothetical example) by the level of competent advice available to an employer. A part-time safety officer with an entry-level qualification and minimal experience may be sufficient to satisfy HSE that a particular employer is complying with MHSW Reg 7. Best practice would be to have a full time team with CMIOSHs.
Heather Collins  
#20 Posted : 11 January 2011 10:08:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

ChrisBurns wrote:
Heather, I have a client who I do site safety inspections for and they have asked me to lower my standard and just stick to Regulations. Some of my inspection is based on best practice guidance and they see this as over the top.
Thanks Chris. Tricky one. Ultimately of course the client is paying and you should be doing what they ask for ;-) In this situation I think I would state the legal requirements and inspect to those but put some "best practice" recommendations in anyway. That way the client has what they want and you have gone the extra mile that you (and most of us I suspect!) feel that the client should at least be aware of.
kevbell  
#21 Posted : 11 January 2011 10:31:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kevbell

Heather makes a good point ,that's what I have done at my work place the director went along with some but not others (down to cost)but at least I gave him all the facts end of the line his money we can only do so much this I have found out in my short time in H&S Kev
BigRab  
#22 Posted : 11 January 2011 11:05:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BigRab

Jon B wrote:
In my view by applying best practice you would be using sophisicated levels of control (allowing for reasonable practicality) and achieving complinace with the regualtion at the higest level. You can still achieve compliance using lower levels of control and in my expereince 'best practice' solution sometimes gives way to 'lowest cost' Take for example dust control, CoSHH says we must protect our employees and advises a number of ways to achieve this. I advise that it would be that best practice to use LEV. The employer disagrees on grounds of costs and decides to implement an RPE -policy (despite its limitations and long term costs). We are controlling exposure and acheiving minimum compliance but have not (in my view) employed best practice.
Not installing LEV and relying on RPE instead would be a breach of both COSHH and the management Regs, so neither best practice nor compliance.
David Bannister  
#23 Posted : 11 January 2011 11:12:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Convincing anyone of the need to make a change comes down to how good a job we do in constructing and delivering our case and then handling any objections (sales technique I suppose). Achieving "Best Practice" requires a set of strong and clear reasons for doing so, particularly if the employer has traditionally been focussed on compliance. Whilst the legal argument can be utilised at that lower level, the case for "Best Practice" will often need to be presented as a clear and preferably measurable business benefit. That is where the skill of the consultant will be tested. Heather's point abouit delivering what the client is paying for is valid and also in some instances stating the higher level achievement aspirations can dilute the "absolutely must do now" stuff that saves lives.
djupnorth  
#24 Posted : 14 January 2011 21:27:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
djupnorth

Chris, My understanding is the best practice is implementing the best that can technically be achieved whereas, complying with the law is doing the minimum you can get away with. Regards. DJ
Jon B  
#25 Posted : 17 January 2011 09:36:32(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

BigRab wrote:
Jon B wrote:
In my view by applying best practice you would be using sophisicated levels of control (allowing for reasonable practicality) and achieving complinace with the regualtion at the higest level. You can still achieve compliance using lower levels of control and in my expereince 'best practice' solution sometimes gives way to 'lowest cost' Take for example dust control, CoSHH says we must protect our employees and advises a number of ways to achieve this. I advise that it would be that best practice to use LEV. The employer disagrees on grounds of costs and decides to implement an RPE -policy (despite its limitations and long term costs). We are controlling exposure and acheiving minimum compliance but have not (in my view) employed best practice.
Not installing LEV and relying on RPE instead would be a breach of both COSHH and the management Regs, so neither best practice nor compliance.
Big Rab - That's a bit of a sweeping statement! If using RPE would breach CoSHH etc then why is it included in the ACoP etc? RPE can be used in many circumstances to control a risk and therefore 'comply'. It not best practice and I used the example in the context of answering the OP.
Bob Shillabeer  
#26 Posted : 17 January 2011 11:42:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

The main crux of this law v best practice is what MUST a company do as a minimum. That is quite simple comply with the law. That means the company will not be procecuted and thus fined etc. That is ther base level any company should aspire to. If the company then wishes to go further best practice comes into play. If the only way to comply with the law is by adopting good or best practice then that is the minimum standard required. I worked for a very important company and was remitted to ensure the company complied with the law not to go to good or best practice unless it was the best way of meeting the legal duties. The law must always be the first standard to meet, best or good practice is an extra step some companies will gladly take if there is an advantage to it.
andybz  
#27 Posted : 17 January 2011 11:58:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

I think the problem for a lot of companies is that they are given safety advice by their own advisers, consultants and others without an explanation that they can understand. If the explanation is that you need to do something because it is required by law, that is very easy to understand. If you "put some "best practice" recommendations in anyway" the result is often confusion. In my opinion, an explanation that an action is best practice is not good enough. The company needs to understand what the risk reduction is likely to be, how easy it will be to implement, what are the risks of implementation (i.e. could it actually cause further problems). Also, advice should be given about priorities. What needs and can be done immediately, what will take time, and what happens during any time lag?
RayRapp  
#28 Posted : 17 January 2011 19:29:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It is my personal view that most employers are only interested in compliance with the law, either implicitly or explicitly. Best practice is going that bit further which some organisations aspire but rarely attain in practice. It is not without an additional cost. Legal compliance is the driver for most organisations, therefore it should not be too surprising that it is also the minimum standard which many organisations attain. Given the prescriptive nature of statutory provisions and ACoPs - perhaps it should not comes as too much of a surprise.
Paul H11  
#29 Posted : 18 January 2011 12:11:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul H11

Isn't there a danger that routinely adopting "Best Practice" just encourages the unstoppable creep of over cautious approaches to Safety management. During my 20+ years practicing the fine art of Health and Safety Management I've seen the balance tip further and further towards a Risk Averse culture. How many of us now document every risk rather than just the significant risks required by regulations, I've been asked to show such Risk Assessments just to prove I had thought about it. Best/GoodPractice can often be used to introduce unnecessary procedures that create more and more work (especially for Consulting firms developing business). There is also a tendency to interpret Best Practice as an increase, couldn't best practice also include reducing the amount of activity, for example not documenting low risk assessments and focussing on those that really matter? Doesn't "Suitable and Sufficient", "Proportionate", Preventative and Protective", "Sufficient", "Relevant"", "Appropriate", "Reasonably Practicable", etc. give enough guidance without introducing yet more terminology?
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