Rank: Super forum user
|
I am hoping that someone may be able to help me with a query one of our employees has:
They currently have a very nice 2 door BMW convertable company car which is due for renewal in November but is now on maternity leave and is struggling to get the baby car seat in and out of the back seat of the car. The employee would like to swap the car earlier than the policy states to get a family friendly car but the company are stating this is not possible - the agreement is 3 year replacements. She is asking if as her back is giving her concern and her child is only going to get heavier is there any H&S view on this.
I am in a dilema regarding this as she is not at work and this is not a work issue, although it is a company car. I also feel that as a relatively new mother who used the front seat of her car for the car seat why can't she but apparantly the only really safe place for the child is the back seat and she will not consider anywhere else.
I would appreciate it if anyone with thoughts regarding the way forward or experience of a similar situation could assist
Thanks in advance
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Hopeful I think you have asked a very good question, I am surprised you haven't had a reply yet, so here is my penny's worth.
IMHO I would think that the company car is a part of her terms and conditions of employment, even though the car contract lasts for 3 years I honestly think that it should be changed to a four door.
Your employee has told you she is suffering from back pain, so in reality forget the fact she has just had a baby, what action would you take if another employee asked for a different car because of a health issue?
IMO it is reasonably practicable to change the car, potentially she could be off sick for quite a while and a claim could be landing on your doorstop very quickly.
Now that should draw a few responses from the experts!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firstly let me state that this is not a H&S issue. The company provides the car for the employee to use in her employment and not for general use. Some employers allow a company car to be used by the employee for other than employment purposes and often charge a fee per mile for that usage. The company are under no obligation to provide a different vehicle simply because the one provided does not fit the baby seat. The vehicle provided meets the needs of the company as it stands so she has to accept the company's point of view.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Sorry Bob I have to disagree with you on this, it is a H&S matter as the employee is concerned for her back, if she complained about her chair in work it would be covered under DSE regs, what's the difference?
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Just to be helpful, why not see if any other employees with compay cars would be willing to swop. Im sure someone with a four door car wouldnt swopping for a nice little BMW 2 seater!!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
No this is a moan about her employer not allowing her to get a new car so she can get a child seat in better. If she has a back problem she needs to address this direct with her employer not use it as an excuse for a better company car. She is on maternity leave so her back is not preventing her working and is nothing to do with her employer (yet). This is an attempt to get the company to give her a car that suits her domestic situation not one required by her employment.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Hopeful, your answer is no, you cannot help.
The employ entered into a contract with a third party. She can if she wishes negotiate her way out of that contract at her own expense, otherwise she can install the baby carrier in the front seat, paying someone to disable the airbags if necessary.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
If the vehicle was unsuitable because it didn't fit the work the person does, it would be an H&S issue. Unless her job is demonstrating baby seats, I can't see how the vehicle is unsuitable for the purpose for which it's been provided.
I'd say, lucky her, that her company car is a top of the line job. Even luckier her, that she's been allowed to hang on to it while on mat leave. If her back is bad because the driver's seat in her car is unsuitable she probably does have a case, but having just been through a pregnancy and delivery I think she'd struggle to isolate the cause of her back problem to the car.
Did she have the back problem before the pregnancy, and was it attributed to the car then? And did she report it as a car issue then? If the answer to both of these is yes, she's got a good case. Otherwise I'd suspect she's stuck with it.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
You are quite correct Ron. It is up to her employer as to what help they can give and the ball is very much in her court. The employer has provided a car suitable for her to fulfill her contract of employment. Her back problem is a total unrelated issue to her company car. It could be as a result of having the baby or possibly from an injury at work but these are totally outside the use of a company car.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
There you go Hopeful I provoked a response for you!
Basically I have to agree with both Bob and Paul's answers, unless she is a director of the company or married to the boss she's got no chance.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Hopeful - I'll swap her a very nice Astra for her 2 seater convertible!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Heather Collins wrote:I'll swap her a very nice Astra!
Is there such a thing? ;-)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Probably not, but I'll still swap it! ;-)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Thank you for all your responses, has helped me immensley. On another note - yes she is lucky with the car, I have never been able to have such a car from a company!!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I agree with Bob.... the putting the baby in the car is an out of work . out of hour task and any problem or injury sustained whilst doing this out of hours / out of work task cannot be judged as a work related issue....The car is provided for her to conduct her normal daily work duties... not ferrying her baby around....Common sense dictates that if i broke my leg playing sunday morning football.... i cudnt blame my company for not providing me with the right shinpads..... the worlds gone mad !
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Couple of points here:
A car is provided as your job involves travel, however Bob is wrong when he says the personal use doesnt come into it as it is a benefit in kind and the employee is taxed on the value of the benefit and the company will advertise the car as a benefit to attact personnel so personal use must still be considered.
The situation is a tricky one, because the problem the lady is suffering is not related to a work activity, many companies will change a company car to accomodate a health issue (reasonable adjustment) however the employee needs some proof that her condition is caused or made worse by the car.
As the baby seems to be the issue and the back problems an after thought as such, I can see why the company is reluctant. I would advise the employee to visit her doctor and then address the issue with her line management as they will hold the cards here.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Paul Duell wrote:...Even luckier her, that she's been allowed to hang on to it while on mat leave...
Though slightly off topic, she is entitled to keep her car during maternity leave as it is percieved as a benefit. A test case compared maternity leave with long term sickness (don't shoot the messenger!) and decided that the employer would not de-car an employee with a long term sickness so they should treat maternity leave in the same way.
Back on topic, not a work issue unless carrying babies around is part of her job. It would be down to good will or possibly a car swap
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Out of interest, could this become a problem on her return to work and decides to breastfeed, bringing the baby to work with her, say in the morning, getting someone to pick the baby afterwards - very very very hypothetical!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
hopeful,
As Ray said this is not a health and safety matter as the lady concerned is having problems that are nothing to do with work (including the back problems) and whether or not she is entitled to change the car will depend purely on her contract of employment and the company's policies. One of my Employment Law colleagues has raised one Employment Law issue however. Again subject to the contract of employment conditions and company policies it may be held to be sex discrimination to require the lady to put the baby in and take it out of the back seat, thereby suffering back problems. The basis of the discrimination will be on the basis that if she was not a woman she would not have the baby and so she would not have these problems. I am not saying that the lady would succeed in any claim, but it is an issue for your employer to consider and it would need to take Employment Law advice.
I hope this helps.
Regards.
DJ
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Interesting points, I'm not a lawyer so I'm offering these as discussion points rather than a legal opinion, but...
Quote:...sex discrimination to require the lady to put the baby in and take it out of the back seat...
Neither her employer, nor any requirement of her job, is requiring her to do that.
Quote:...if she was not a woman she would not have the baby...
I would consider the suggestion that men don't do childcare to be sex discrimination in itself!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
SafetyGirl wrote:Out of interest, could this become a problem on her return to work and decides to breastfeed, bringing the baby to work with her, say in the morning, getting someone to pick the baby afterwards - very very very hypothetical!
Even so, the employer is not obliged to supply a vehicle suitable for this. The vehicle only needs to be fit for the employee to do the job.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Paul,
I am not sure what points you are trying to make. These are merely suggestions from a employment solicitor colleague. In order for there to be discrimination on the grounds of sex, the claimant has to show that he/she has been required to do something (or prevented from doing something) that a member of the opposite sex would do in the same circumstances. As men don't have babies, the lady in question might argue that e.g. the company's policy of only changing cars every three years discriminates against a woman who has a baby and who needs a change of car for that reason. There are of course a number of counter arguments and hence my statement that the claim may not succeed.
SafetyGirl,
From memory, women who are breastfeeding have no right to bring the baby to work. They can express milk and the employer has a statutory duty to provide clean, private facilities to allow that to happen and suitable storage facilities for the milk until the end of the woman's working day.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
djupnorth wrote:Paul,
I am not sure what points you are trying to make. These are merely suggestions from a employment solicitor colleague.
Apologies if I caused offence, that certainly wasn't my intention - I was merely providing a counter point to the suggestion made, to open up the discussion. If I was making a point, it was that what this lady is doing with the car (putting the baby seat and baby in, and transporting it) is no different to what a man would be doing. She may have an argument that the firm isn't enacting family-friendly policies, but if she does then so would a man who'd recently become a father.
Quote:As men don't have babies, the lady in question might argue that e.g. the company's policy of only changing cars every three years discriminates against a woman who has a baby
Yes, but only in the sense that a man could say the firm discriminates against a man who's recently become a father. There may be discrimination (although I don't think there is), but it isn't on the grounds of gender.
The only way I can see that the "men don't have babies" argument would be relevant is if the car's driving position wasn't capable of being adjusted sufficiently to accommodate a pregnant driver.
To clarify my viewpoint further, consider the idea that the company *allows* her to use the car for personal use, e.g. to transport her family. It doesn't *require* her to use it for that purpose.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Paul,
No offence was taken at all and your points are very valid. My post is simply the view of an Employment Solicitor with many years experience, who feels there is a risk of a sex discrimination case. No more than that.
Regards.
DJ
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.