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Can all accidents have corrective and preventative actions?
Rank: Forum user
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An example could be with the recent freezing weather a member of staff fell over in the ice even though the place had been gritted to the best of our ability. What would be the corrective action and the preventative action for such an occurrence? In reason, I mean it’s easy to say preventative action when it gets below a certain temperature don't attempt to come to work and yes that may solve it but it’s not very practicable. I have come across numerous incidents were I really can't think of a corrective and preventative action for what has just happened, does any other poster encounter the same frustrations? And if so what is the correct answer ?
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Rank: New forum user
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I would say yes, all accidents can have corrective and preventive actions, but as you point out, they may not always be considered practical or cost effective.
In this particular situation, I would have thought that your corrective/preventive action should start with a review of the incident itself, and the precautions you had taken in order to try and prevent it i.e. gritting.
This is a dynamic situation with the weather, so the balance of risk vs preventive measures may have also been changing. So my first questuion would be how do you decide what is an acceptable risk here and is there a point at which it becomes unacceptable. While a blanket "don't come to work if it's icy" may not be practicable, are there circumstances when you do say that?
How did you attempt to reduce the risk? You identify gritting, but what else could you have done? Are there better products/alternatives that work down to a lower temperature?
I'm not going to go through a whole incidnet review here, but I think it's easy to see that however much we though we did, and however small the incident, we can always perform some kind of causal analysis, and if thorough that should always lead to potential risk reduction opportunities. We then have to make the decision whether to implement them or not, which is where the balance of risk vs effort, time etc comes in.
So back to my original statement, yes, we can always take preventive/corrective action, if we want to.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I too agree there is a point at which you cannot carry out any further preventative and/or corrective actions. Our example is of our inspectors, who have to go out onto other employer's sites for example farms and collect samples. This is our statutory responsibility, unfortunately they have to go and look at crops when they are ready and in the case of flower bulbs that means between now and March when the fields are wet and slippery. They cannot always wait until the weather is perfect, they wear suitable kit (decent boots etc) but they occasionally fall over and injure themselves, sometimes seriously. We have tried to do everything to prevent such slips/trips and falls but there is nothing else we can do. My argument is that we have complied with our duty of care by doing everything reasonably practicable to ensure the inspectors safety and health. There is nothing more we can do. That’s the nature of the job, but at least we are carrying this risk with knowledge as oppose to blindly hoping for the best
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Rank: Forum user
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I have to agree with Mersey, having investigated a similar incident earlier this month. The construction site walkways/access/egress where all gritted through the day and night ensuring safety of operatives, with this also being done daily between 7.00am and 7.30am, but an individual slipped on a patch of ice in a location where no work activities had taken place. We have experienced over the last 2 months a period of unprecedented cold weather seeing rain/snow turning to ice on impact with the ground this has resulted in numerous road traffic accidents, motorways being closed ect. The solution would be when temperatures reach zero close all construction sites,schools,workplaces,commercial outlets and public spaces making sure everybody stayed at home. Due to sudden temperature changes this would involve evacuate workplaces at different times of the day meaning more risks to individuals. I myself have closed a site twice in the last 2 months and on 1 occasion for a few days because I could not ensure safety of individuals on site, but they could easily of had an accident on the way home, I then obviously need to explain my actions to the commercial guru's. Going back to Mersey post if you have done as much as reasonably practical you are right there will be occasions accidents are just accidents and no matter what was done or could of been done will be unpreventable. No doubt this will trigger a lengthy debate!
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Rank: Super forum user
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I agree although I must admit I was tempted to put up an notice saying
"Warning! this strange cold white stuff can be quite slippery"
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Rank: Forum user
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Technically speaking the preventive actions would have taken place before the accident.
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Rank: Super forum user
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What's unreasonable about "In icy consitions, only walk on the gritted routes"?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Strictly speaking corrective actions correct a situation once it as occurred
Preventative measures stop the situation developing and thus should not be triggered by ice formation, rather they would seek to find a method of preventing ice ever forming - not easy. Preventative measures are appplied before a situation has ever arisen - once it has arisen, even at some point in the past, all measures are corrective.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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I do not believe that all accidents and incidents are subject to meaningful corrective actions. Many minor accidents occur quite frequently and are simply down to human error. I dislike trying to 'invent' corrective measures in order to appease senior management or a client. For example, a sub-contractor (supervisor) moving an empty palette injured a muscle in his arm which resulted in a LTI. The palette was not heavy and the injury was not really reasonably foreseeable or preventable - a freak accident. However, the accident report was criticised for failing to identify corrective actions, such as manual handling training etc. Would MH training have prevented the injury? No, I do not believe it would. The problem is that there are too many safety 'experts' out there.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray
Before this happened a preventative measure would have been to recognise the potential risk of injury from manually handling pallets because of their size and unwieldy nature and prevent ANY manual handling.
Now the event happens one has to ask whether there were any actions at all that were unusual ?- what did the root cause analysis say? One should be very careful to use the termm simply a freak accident I personally have difficulties with the idea
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Aside from the subsequent discussions etc, if you look at the example in original post
"... a member of staff fell over in the ice even though the place had been gritted to the best of our ability.
And with the emphasis on TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY, surely the only reasonable and logical answer to the subsequent question "What would be the corrective action and the preventative action for such an occurrence?",
would surely be none!!!!!
Just a thought!
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Rank: Guest
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Yes, but only if 'the best of their ability' was up to generally acceptable standards, ie they were competent.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I was being a bit facetious, although, arguably if the same person or company that had claimed to have done everything to the best of their ability was the same person or company that then deliberated on the corrective or preventative action, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the answer was - none.
I stopped looking for the Holy Grail of health and safety many years ago, so with my feet planted firmly on the ground, I am with Ray in #9. There is human error that in PRACTICAL terms is essentially impossible to eliminate and there are other causation's that are not under the control of us or within our gift to either foresee or prevent.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob, I suspected that someone would question my train of thought. The scenario I presented was a brief one for obvious reasons, but given that it was a large construction site with about 200 operatives most of whom are transient sub-contractors. It is impossible to delve into each and every person and their abilities, training etc. On such a site there are many activities such as M&E, formwork, scaffolding, excavation, brick laying, civils and so on. Indeed, many opportunities for all manner of injuries. I appreciate what you are saying, but in reality there is simply not enough hours in the day to properly manage all these activities in terms of preventive actions.
Thanks for your comments Phil, hindsight is a wonderful thing as everything is so obvious after the event.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray I was long enough in construction not to appreciate what you are saying. From a management system standpoint however one has to say that one must find answers to all system errors/degradations. THe OP was asking a hypothetical question and an ideal answer is required. This is not necessarily the same as a realistic one in actual work. Ideally all accidents have corrections, most may have preventative measures. I real life you and I know the answers
Bob
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Can all accidents have corrective and preventative actions?
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