Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Dave C  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2011 10:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dave C

It has just come to my attention that an employee has been signed off work for a week with a bad back which it is said has been caused through work - not one particular incident but excessive manual handling tasks/strain. What are your views on this as to whether it is reportable? All retrospective and nothing was said at the time. I reckon only way to get to bottom of this is thorough investigation.
Terry556  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2011 11:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Terry556

I would invite him into work for an interview, and ask the questions 1. Is it company policy to report all accidents, if so follow the company procedures, and disciplinary route if needed 2. Do your investigation, did he have the injury at work any witnesses etc, do your corrective actions and review the RA 3. Offer him alternative work, which does not involve lifting 4. If he is of work for more than 3 working days after the accident then yes it is reportable I would argue this case with the individual, as he could have done this outside of work,
Jon B  
#3 Posted : 25 January 2011 12:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

If other causes can be discounted then is reasonable that its may be work related and if it is over 3 days then yes it's reportable. Some may disagree but we do not report unless at least some link is established but if the employee is looking for an easy claim they will hardly admit to the rugby game or DIY at the weekend! Be careful with the reporting policy, back injuries (and other strains) can manifest sometime after the event and you don't always know you have done it (This I know from painful experience). Are they reporting it because the Dr said it was work related or have they had further advice? Maybe they just hoped it would go away but now they have had a week off they are genuinely concerned there may be long term damage. They may be at fault for doing this but unless your systems are squeaky clean then I would advise not getting the IP's back up (excuse pun). Not everyone is after a claim but it pays to tread carefully. What do they do, is there a MH risk and has it been assessed and proper controls put in place? Have they been trained in correct techniques and do they use them? I had a conversation with our insurers last year and if these points at least aren't addressed they will simply roll over in the event of a claim. If they are returning to work can the Dr provide a 'Fit' note detailing what they IP can actually do. If so work the RTW programme around this. If this is managed well and if any gaps in your RA etc are rectified quickly the IP is less likely to think of claiming.
Andrew W Walker  
#4 Posted : 25 January 2011 12:31:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Jon B wrote:
If they are returning to work can the Dr provide a 'Fit' note detailing what they IP can actually do. If so work the RTW programme around this. If this is managed well and if any gaps in your RA etc are rectified quickly the IP is less likely to think of claiming.
We have just had an employee bring a "Fit" note in saying that he was ok to take up his normal duties. When asked if the doc had actually examined him, he said no. Also, the doc wasn't aware that he had a hospital appt for further tests to see if surgery was needed. It transpires that the doc just asked him if he was ok to return to work.
Jon B  
#5 Posted : 25 January 2011 12:52:23(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

quote=Motorhead]
Jon B wrote:
If they are returning to work can the Dr provide a 'Fit' note detailing what they IP can actually do. If so work the RTW programme around this. If this is managed well and if any gaps in your RA etc are rectified quickly the IP is less likely to think of claiming.
We have just had an employee bring a "Fit" note in saying that he was ok to take up his normal duties. When asked if the doc had actually examined him, he said no. Also, the doc wasn't aware that he had a hospital appt for further tests to see if surgery was needed. It transpires that the doc just asked him if he was ok to return to work.
In principle, if he has been signed as fit to return to normal duties then he is fit! The employer can't be held responsible for an incorrect diagnosis or negligence of the doctor. In practice the 'fit' (or sick) note is only part of the system. The RTW interview / assessment should - if robust enough - pick up a glaring error like this. It is not uncommon for GP's and Hospitals to not know what the other is doing (again from experience) but did your IP not tell his doctor he was still undergoing tests? Surely if the Dr knew then he would not have declared fit! On a personal level I had physio last year and the physio took great pains to explain that he had to report back to my GP once my course of treatment was complete and this was part of the NHS policy to improve internal communications.
Andrew W Walker  
#6 Posted : 25 January 2011 13:12:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Jon B wrote:
In principle, if he has been signed as fit to return to normal duties then he is fit! The employer can't be held responsible for an incorrect diagnosis or negligence of the doctor. In practice the 'fit' (or sick) note is only part of the system. The RTW interview / assessment should - if robust enough - pick up a glaring error like this. It is not uncommon for GP's and Hospitals to not know what the other is doing (again from experience) but did your IP not tell his doctor he was still undergoing tests? Surely if the Dr knew then he would not have declared fit! On a personal level I had physio last year and the physio took great pains to explain that he had to report back to my GP once my course of treatment was complete and this was part of the NHS policy to improve internal communications.
Our RTW interview picked it up, he was not allowed back to work. The IP did not tell his doctor anything, other than he felt ok to work. The doctor didn't ask any further questions, so we were told. We think that he wanted to come back to work a little too early because of financial reasons. Just another complication to keep our lives interesting
Dave C  
#7 Posted : 25 January 2011 20:14:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dave C

Thanks everyone for replies. Yes we have MH assessments in place and all employees recieve MH training. The problem here may be one of communicating of/lack of info. I think there are underlying causes to this and perhaps our reporting procedures need to be emphasised and rolled out again. Just don't know when I would report date of "accident" but will find out more and take it from there. Thanks again.
Clairehug  
#8 Posted : 25 January 2011 20:48:13(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clairehug

I know this will be controversial, but if you report it as an accident at work you are accepting that the injury was caused at work. This can then be used by personal injury lawyers as evidence that the injury did occur at work and make it difficult for you to defend a claim. You have said that you have MH assessments and the employee was given training in MH. There was no single event which caused the injury (nothing in an accident book I presume), so why does he think that his bad back is work related rather than from non-work activities, a medical condition or just wear and tear? If you do not think that the injury was caused by work then don't report it as such. You cannot get into trouble for not reporting an accident at work if there is no evidence that it happened. If evidence does emerge that tends to indicate it is work related, then report it at that stage, you won't get into trouble for late reporting if you were spending time investigating and establishing its validity.
Canopener  
#9 Posted : 25 January 2011 21:03:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I hear what Claire says, and suggest that you choose your words carefully when making the report. And before anyone jumps on me, I aren't suggesting making a false report or lying etc, but rather suggesting that you use the narrative wisely.
jay  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2011 11:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Firstly, an employee has a right to enter an accident "at work" in the accident book and the employer has the right to establish facts etc and make those inputs in the accident book, including aspects that the employees information is incorrect etc or facts cannot be established due to employee not following procedure. Even if it is within the scope of RIDDOR, you can inform in the relevant part of the F2508 that the employee did not report as per procedure in reasonable time, and due to that facts cannot be established if that is the case. Even an employee as a last resort can report a "RIDDOR", the ICC will send a copy to the employer for action.
Reed21854  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2011 12:03:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Reed21854

If there was no one incident or accident which resulted in a back injury the employee has not done anything wrong per say by not recording an incident in the accident book. I would certainly ask him about his injury and ask him what other activities he might participate in outside of work which could also have contributed to a cumulative injury. And when he is fit to return to work you will need to probably look at the duties he can carry out safely and phase his return to manual handling. In my experience so far GPs are not very specific when completing fit notes - I 've had one come in which helpfully said "Light duties may be considered". What ever that means? Personally I am not entirely convinced this is a reportable injury, but if the member of staff wants to put an entry in the book, then it will become one! Some people advise to report it through on an F2508 if you're not sure anyway....
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.