A friend of mine was asking my advice on a situation that happened in his workplace and i wondered what you thought of this. A guy who works with him in a large organisation got a electrical shock of 440v in an accident that happened to him, he was taken to the works medical center and had an ecg and then taken to a local hospital with an irregular heart beat and slight internal burning. He was kept in over night and then discharged the following afternoon, he was contacted by a manager and asked if he wanted a days holiday for that night shift or did he want to make it a LTI (Lost time incident), he went for the days holiday and then returned to work the following night shift on a light duty job.What do you think should have happened in this situation, remembering that this company my friend works for uses the LTI as the No1 internal indicator for its safety performance. Also do you believe that this is a RIDDOR reportable incident based on these facts.

yes because he is on light duties and he was very lucky

Oddly the 'taken to hospital' only applies to members of the public,

Unconscious, requires resuscitation or in hospital over 24 hrs are the criteria for employees. Not sure if any of those apply here.

Afternoon,

This person was lucky and I agree with the poor opinion of the manager.
Hope everything goes well for the injured person.

To deal with RIDDOR first
As kimberleya said a Major reportable injury to an employee suffering from an electricution is defined as;

injury resulting from an electric shock or electrical burn leading to unconsciousness, or requiring resuscitation or admittance to hospital for more than 24 hours;

and as wood has pointed out it is not clear that unconsciousness happened or that resuscitation was required nor is it clear how long the stay in hospital was. So there are three issues, any one, could make this accident reportable as a Major accident.

Another issue that could make this reportable as an over 3 day accident, is, if the person was unable to perform their normal duties for 3 days (discounting the day of the accident). So if the IP was kept on light duties for 3 nights then it is reportable (I am taking the "days holiday" as part of the night he had the accident but I may have read that wrong).

My main worry is that the accident happened at all, this demonstrates a major failure somewhere in the company safety management system.
The accident investigation report may prove interesting.

Take Care

Hi Smart

Firstly hope your friend made a full recovery.

Second I would just like to clear up a few points if your friend was in hospital following an electricution injury resulting from an electric shock or electrical burn leading to unconsciousness, or requiring resuscitation or admittance to hospital for more than 24 hours - then it would be a RIDDOR this is totally clear if he is in two nights - no argument however if he was admitted at 15:00 on thursday and discharged at 14:59 on friday it does not apply. The clue is in the 24 hour bit. -23 hours and 59 minutes is not 24 hours. Another anomoly is that a person can be waiting 3 hours to see a doctor before being admitted and RIDDOR notes "admitted" not waiting time to see doctor and then admitted. So unless it was a very serious electrocution with serious burns which is what the Regulations are there to pick up it becomes harder to assess the 24 hour rule.

Third a days holiday unless pre booked would still count as either a day off (but with pay) or a deployment to light duties so the clock would be ticking aftr the day of the accident anyway.

Fourth a days holiday and then one day on light duties would not make it a RIDDOR reportable or even two days on light duties however if the light duties carried on for three days with the days holiday it would be reportable as a +3 day accident.

Through personal experience if you notified the HSE and noted that they were deployed to light duties and you had given them a days holiday then they would be unlikely to follow it up so the company have no real cause to cover any of this up.

Being taken to hospital by ambulance is never a RIDDOR unless taken it is being taken from a shop (there may be others but i am not at work so do not have access to the Regulations.

Finally we should not be naming company names particularly where they have no recourse or reply - I have no doubt that Fletch is genuine but they may have dilligently closed out all the lessons learned from the incident - without direct information we do not know.

From the info we have so far it is not a RIDDOR reportable.

NB RIDDOR does not mention "light duties" the correct term is "Restricted Duties" ie unable to perform a full range of his normal duties

Oldroyds detailed reply is 100% correct.
Not Reportable

Steve

Phil
this is bottom of page 16 of the RIDDOR guide copied & pasted

"Injuries to people not at work
45 Any injury to a person who is not at work (eg a hotel or care home resident,
pupil or student, or a customer in a shop) must be reported if it:
(a) results from an accident arising out of or in connection with work; and
(b) results in them being taken from the premises where the accident occurred to
a hospital, by whatever means (for example by taxi, private car or
ambulance).
46 The phrase in regulation 3(1)(c): 'Taken from the site of the accident to
hospital for treatment' describes a situation where someone is taken to hospital
because it appears that some medical attention may be necessary. There is no
requirement to check that treatment is actually administered by the hospital. The
injury must still be reported in cases where the person does not receive treatment"

ie This refers to "Injuries to people not at work"

Steve

Smart these were your questions ;-
"What do you think should have happened in this situation, remembering that this company my friend works for uses the LTI as the No1 internal indicator for its safety performance. Also do you believe that this is a RIDDOR reportable incident based on these facts."

We have answered the RIDDOR question.

With regard to the other part of the question regarding his manager asking him if he wanted a days holiday. Did this benefit the person involved (financially), the manager or both? We dont know as we were not party to the discussion so we can only judge so far on this type of forum.
Steve

Steve

I promise I am off to bed but for the life of me I don't understand the relevance of your post at #13 to either of my previous posts. A misunderstanding??????? More than happy to discuss offline!

I KNOW that para 45 etc etc refers to people NOT at work!!!! (incidentally I have it at the bottom of page 23!) And I am more than aware of the reporting requirements for people not at work (see post on recent thread). I assume that accident in question at the top was AT work.

I was merely querying/questioning the part of Oldroyds post that suggested that "Being taken to hospital by ambulance is never a RIDDOR"! Unless being taken from a shop!!!

He seems to suggest that arriving at a hospital in an ambulance (perish the thought that anyone might chose this particular mode of transport to a hospital!) following an accident at work, that this would never be reportable. I suggest that if I sustain an over 3 day or major injury at work and I arrived at a hospital in an ambulance that this would be reportable. I also suggest that if I was not at work but sustained an injury in connection with someone elses work (whether a shop or whatever) and was taken directly to hospital in an ambulance that this would also be reportable.

Is it me?

I'll try not to post on this thread anymore!!! :-)

This is definitely reportable, they also need to review their work procedures, and do a full investigation

I think that was Phil's point all along!!! ARGHHH :) Phil if it helps, I agree with you!

As for the lost time issue, I have experienced very similar issues on large chemical plants. American owned with strict reporting guidance from head office, if safety targets were not met then profit share was cut and the company suffered penalties.
This is NOT a good way to manage safety in my eyes. However they tended to play on technicalities and walk a thin line, but were not immoral! As Terry 'helpfully' pointed out, the incident would have been fully investigated.

Someone might correct me on this, but I think the OSHA measure of LTI is different and this is where the holiday issue arises as loop hole. RIDDOR makes it very clear that you cannot do this, but how you record lost time as a company stat is kind of up to you?

IMHO it is immoral and wrong to twist statistics in this way, but without a full picture of the corporate environment, safety culture and various other factors it is, as already pointed out, difficult to pass judgment on how right or wrong this is.

Oh for the want of a 'edit' button, 'delete' button or a 'beam me to the moon for the weekend' button!

Firstly, Martin (oldroyd) my unreserved apologies for my 'rant'. It was definitely me!

My interpretation of what you were trying to say was woeful, and I realised that just as soon as I had tucked myself up in bed. In your post ""Being taken to hospital by ambulance is never a RIDDOR", I thought that you were suggesting that someone arriving at a hospital by ambulance could never be reportable under RIDDOR (which of course it can). What I think you were actually saying was that, (I assume in response to the post at #2) was that being taken to hospital by ambulance was not one of the criteria for reporting under RIDDOR. Which I entirely agree with.

Interestingly enough the same 'answer' is given on another RIDDOR thread posted today!! Ambulances have got nothing to do with RIDDIOR reporting requirements!

Personally, I am always puzzled at how people struggle with RIDDOR. It's always seem pretty straightforward to me and hey, if you report something that ultimately didn't need to be, I don't see that there is any harm done.

My apologies again. Welcome to the forums!!!

Regardless of whether the incident was a RIDDOR or not, it should be properly reported and investigated. If anyone is in doubt as to whether RIDDOR is confusing and needs modifying they only need to read this thread!