Please can members help me here,A frien of mine has just taken over a pub (this morning) and outside in a childrens play area there are 4 47kilo gas bottles supplying the kitchen,these bottles are free standing but chained together with the gas isolation tap next to them,and the empties are left to lay on the floor untill collected,i have told her that the empty and full bottles need to be seperated and caged but the brewery have said they are ok as they are what are yiur thoughts.

Thanks for all replies

As the cylinders are in a childrens play area I would suggest they should be in a secured cage to stop the children playing with them, this also applies to those lying on the floor.

Notwithstandingthe issues of of LPG risk - full and even empty cylinders are heavy and the potential for them to fall over and cause serious injury to children and others must also be taken into consideration. This would almost certainly lead you towards a secure cage for both full and empty cylinders.

The risks of release associated with the empty cylinders being stored horizontally are minimal. I would be more concerned about the empty cylinder rolling onto a child’s foot or a child being able to access the cylinder valve. That being said I agree the empty cylinders should be stored in a secured upright position.

Similarly, the duty cylinders should also be secured to prevent the cylinder from falling.

Perhaps the Brewery would be interested to consider that the other risks associated with the scenario of a cylinder falling would be that of deliver hose disconnection prior to the regulator. Considering a 47 Kg LPG cylinder this would result in a gas jet velocity of 170 m/s and if early ignition were to take place a flame length of 26 metres and end of flame frustum tip width of 8 metres.

Peak radiation of 140 kW/M2 for a distance of 26 metres would not make for a happy outcome in the playground either.

<Tongue firmly in cheek>



Ah, roast child, very tasty .....!

<tongue now out of cheek!>

Gas used in a pub are generally co2 or a co2 and nitrogen mix. They are not able to explode or catch fire therefore are quite safe stored in an open air position. The risk is often suffocation but as they are outdoors this will not arise. The only risk in this particular situation is if bottles fall and injure a child (or even an adult if the cylinders are large) Generally in a cellar type sitution they are small cylinders and as such the risk is very low. Having siad that these bottles are rather valuable and care should be taken in storing them and preventing theft. If they are near a childrens play area, they should be moved to a more secure location. To the matter of the landlords position with the brewery, is the pub a managed house or is the new landlord the 'pub operator' if he is the 'pub operator' it is his responsibility. If he is the pub manager it depends on his contract with the brewery and that should show his responsibility. It is hard to define without understanding the agreement with the brewery.

The risk of horizontal storage is different with LPG than for a fuel gas such as Acetylene.
With LPG if the cylinder is horizontal and the valve is opened the contents will be released as a liquid, anyone coming into contact with that will suffer injuries due to the very low temperature.
Apart from that, with the current high price of the gas it makes a lot of sense to chain them immovably even if only to stop the theft of same (ask the rail network about bottled gas thefts)
Common sense really, the same [anti-theft] applies to other high-price fuels such as rebated diesel.

Please try and think about what gases are used in the licenced trade. They are not gasses such as propane etc. The gasses used are inert types and are simply used as a means of propelling the liquid from the keg to the tap at the bar. There are dangers with them in confined space but no risk of fire. As a secretary of a social club I was responsible for ensuring the gas supply was up to standard and available otherwise no gas no beer, but plenty of moans from disgruntled members thirsty ones at that. Cellar gas comes in smaller bottles about two foot six tall and should be stapped to a wall to prevent them falling over. THERE IS NO DANGER OF THEM CATCHING FIRE. The pressure is a risk but the cylinders are designed to be fairly well abused the main risk being the neck which is generally protected by a very hard plastic protector. To have them outside near a childrens play area is of a very low risk, but full ones should be kept safer than in this situation not from a safety point of view but a cost point of view, a full one costs about £50 pounds to rent and the actual cost of the bottle itself around £300. The brewery would charge you if one went missing. The things to be concerned about are down to manual handling and confined spaces (the cellar) and the risk of escaping gas as it can cause asphixiation.

Plus Propane and LPG are supplied in 47 kg cylinders whereas typical brewery cylinders are not. Further more the OP mentions a single isolation valve that plus kitchen use would lead one to assume hydrocarbon as opposed to inert gas.