I am still of the opinion that 25kilo is the accepted maximum weight for one man to lift - am I correct? If so is that accepted weight the real maximum or can the risk assessment suggest a heavier weight is OK? What if a panel 5+metres long by 1 metre wide weighs 110kilo how many men would be required to lift from a stillage (varying heights ranging from shoulder high down to knee high-this requiring the greater effort as it has to be raised to shoulder high) and then onto a fork lift truck? This exercise will happen approx thirty times over an eight hour period.

Chris The regs say a person should only lift what they feel comfortable and capable of lifting. Second point a two persons lifting an item can not lift twice the weight of one person - only about 20% more than one person can lift. So for your lift you could be looking at a six man plus, lift. Could you not get an attachment for the FLT to do this for you?

quote=ChrisBurns]I am still of the opinion that 25kilo is the accepted maximum weight for one man to lift - am I correct? If so is that accepted weight the real maximum or can the risk assessment suggest a heavier weight is OK? What if a panel 5+metres long by 1 metre wide weighs 110kilo how many men would be required to lift from a stillage (varying heights ranging from shoulder high down to knee high-this requiring the greater effort as it has to be raised to shoulder high) and then onto a fork lift truck? This exercise will happen approx thirty times over an eight hour period.

The 25 kg is only a guide you have to take into account many factors like the persons capability (which only they can tell you) I have found the MAC tool a good starting point (you can download and iteractive version) this will point you in the wright direction. The name of the game is to eliminate, reduce etc. Sounds to me like you need MHE to solve this problem which of course brings with it other issues like training and correct selection of equipment. Carry out the RA and look at the ACOP this will give the answers. You mention placing it onto a forklift truck so why not lift it with this in the first place? Is it possible to alter the workplace lay out to facilitate this.

Thanks We have two sets of contractors, one using lifting aids and two men - no problem. The other lifting with 4 men as they can do the same work quicker. The work is timed as there is a target set. One set of workers have been told they must not man handle and they see the others man handling.

Chris, As teh_boy points out, there are no limits, only guidance figures, beyond which it can be considered risky. Even below these guidelines you will still need to consider the basics(Task, individual capacity, load and environment). Lifting from shoulder height greatly reduces the guideline weights and team lifting complicates things even more. It may be OK to lift outside the guidelines but only after the usual RA. You have indicated the task can be done with lifting aids so its logical that they be used. I'd say the former seem to have a well managed system of work while the later demonstrate a lack of risk assessment and may be placing 'speed' above managing the risk. How did the panels get onto the stillage? Cant the same means assist removal? Jon

I stand by my original point and it has just been confirmed... The manual handling regulations are about reducing risk. Quicker would in no way be seen as acceptable in this case. (IMHO) To quote regulations 4(1)a "where it is not reasonably practicable to avoid the need for his employees to undertake any manual handling operations at work which involve a risk of their being injured" i) make a suitable and sufficient assessment of all such manual handling operations to be undertaken by them, having regard to the factors which are specified in column 1 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations and considering the questions which are specified in the corresponding entry in column 2 of that Schedule, (ii) take appropriate steps to reduce the risk of injury to those employees arising out of their undertaking any such manual handling operations to the lowest level reasonably practicable,

Do you have a link to that advice/guidance/rule whatever it is please?

So what are they saying - is it the accepted lift or is it up to the individuals?

The story is a little complicated but I'll try to keep it short. The job began with one set of workers last year and there was a lot of time put into the methodology including manufacturing bespoke equipment for handling. The client, designer, CDM-C and contractors all worked together to come up with the safest method. The job started slowly because of unseen problems arising, not the task itself but all around it. I was not involved in this process, only introduced late because the PC's H&S man had done a runner and I was a late substitute. When I wrote the CPP all method statements were in and approved. A second team were introduced recently who worked out their own different method of completing the task, quicker but without the bespoke handling aids. By this time the client and designer had backed off allowing the PC to control the work, the original CDM-C had gone, replaced by another who had not been part of the initial process. Hence my concern about the manual handling. I have raised it but the project manager is resisting because they have a quicker method and he wants to keep it. I will agree with him as long as I can satisfy myself that the handling is safe and within the rules. I do know what I know but there is always the question I ask myself - "what don't I know" and this is why I use this forum, to pick the brains of the better informed, sometimes I learn and other times I just confirm what I already knew. One thing I have learned is that Manual Handling still has grey areas and the MAC tool will help. Thanks to all of you.

If they have found one mechanical solution then who's to say that there isn't a better method further investigation should be put into that as well. i think you are fixating on the 25kg you need to look at the total range of movement and from what you described they are working outside the prescribed weight limits. 25 kg is for lifting an item at waist height close to the body your guys aren't doing this in fact the maximum they should be allowed to lift at times might be 8kg maximum. If they only had to carry out this task once a day you might decide it is allowable but they have to repeat this 30 times a day so to my mind would make it unacceptable. As i said before could you not split the team of 4 into two and but two new mechanical aids and still keep the same output? If one of the guys gets injured then they have a strong case to claim compensation. I don't think you are within the guidance on MH due purely to the fact of how the panel is lifted from knee height to chest height. Phil

"The work is timed as there is a target set". The person(s) setting that target will bear significant responsibility in the event of injury. Is this target realistic or even necessary?

Chris PM if you want help, You can text, call or tweet me later if you need too :)

Good morning all, I had a good look at the task on Friday, as it happens it's not as bad as first imagined. The lift is by 4 men who raise the panels from the height which varies as they remove ten panels, one at a time, they then travel sideways to place the panel onto the lifting aid on the fork truck. No distance at all. All four men are more that capable of carrying out the task and all four are happy to do it. The other operation using lifting aids right through the process is much slower and just about achieves the target whereas this one allows for more speed. They do about three lifts every 20 minutes so plenty of break time in between.