Who would you be putting at risk by disturbing the presumed asbestos? The old/vulnerable? The person/persons involved in the removal? Although it possibly/probably won't directly affect the old people (more likely to pass away due to old age) the same can't be said of the people working on the boiler without knowing if they have disturbed asbestos. Surely the H&S of the heating engineers takes precedence?

Well the Regs and HSG 264 require that a survey before carried out before work on any potential ACM is carried out. If a boiler contains asbetos, there is a high chance that the ACM could be disturbed and become air borne, thus exposing contractors and residents in the near vicinity at risk. Any exposure though low, is not the issue, the law still requires a survey and where identified, either a licenced contracor should carry out the works for licenced work or a contractor with sufficient asbestos training for non licenced work. Going back to my dilemma, leaving a block without heating puts the elderly at risk in particular with the recent cold weather we have seen. Carrying out the survey takes at least a few days, even on an emegency basis, samples need to be taken and sent to the lab for analysis. If you don't carry out the survey and ACM's are disturbed in the process then you instantly breach law. If you do, the the residents are left in a cold building! Even with electric heaters unless their left on continually the building would never remain warm. Difficult one to call!

Chaps, I believe the asbestos lagging/coating on boilers are licenced works. Thus we can't use normal staff with just awareness training for removal, it would have to be a licenced contractor. You have to carry out the survey to confirm the type of asbestos your dealing with. The assumptive rule has now been removed since the introduction of HSG 264. A

It's also about practicality, supplying additional heating equipment will a) cost a fair bit of money for each room and communal area and b) resource, in the sense that they would need to be dispatched in an emergency (at unknown hours) and retrieved once boiler has been replaced.

abs, I think you will find that HSG264 does allow for asbestos to be 'presumed' and that a survey is not necessary in all cases. When I made my earlier comment I also made the assumption you were talking about a domestic type of boiler not one that is lagged with asbesots as suggested in your later post[s]. If the boiler is lagged with asbestos then that is a whole different ball game and only licensed contractors should deal with it, and indeed you then have a dilemma, not least because you need to give 14 days notice to HSE before its removal.

Abs, In post #4 you infer that the property is commercial rather than domestic, so surely an asbestos survey would already have been carried out on the building? If so it should have identified any potential presence of asbestos in the boilers, or otherwise assumed its presence... Or have I missed something? A

I am interpreting this a domestic issue but a 'common area' was also mentioned. The 'duty to manage' non-domestic premises (CAR Reg. 4) is detailed in HSG264, domestic properties are not elaborated on that much. Having said that the CAR 2006 apply to any asbestos regardless of where it is. Your dilemma, in my opinion, can be answered as follows: Avoid disturbing or further spread of asbestos containing material (ACM). DO NOT compromise asbestos safety. You should bear in mind that if someone is sent to a repair in a domestic property then it becomes a place of work anyway and so the 'duty to manage' does apply, as does HASAWA, etc, etc. Ensure the area undergoes a survey and, where appropriate, samples are taken. You can, with appropriate justification, presume or strongly presume the presence of ACM. Put in place the necessary control measures to ensure the asbestos in properly managed. Provide alternative heating to the rooms, property, etc. The cost of this, whilst being a consideration does not provide a reason for asbestos safety to be compromised in any way. Initiate boiler repairs only after the boiler(s) have been surveyed and any ACM present has been identified and managed accordingly. Having a lack of data is no excuse, as is the quantity of housing stock, timescales for surveying, etc. If anything the large quantity of housing stock should inform your actions and make the use of presumptive assessment therby allowing the ACM to be managed correctly. I note someone mentioned that the age of the tenants (?) is a bigger factor to consider here...I despair, I really do, that this view may be taken.

The answers to safe working procedures are all within the asbestos task essentials http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/

Works can be conducted on the boiler without the need for licensed contractors if certain conditions are met and control measures are put in place. INDG223(rev4), "The Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006:specify that work on asbestos insulation and AIB should normally be carried out by a licensed contractor. There is an exemption from this requirement if the work is short duration, and where the risk assessment shows that the work will only produce sporadic and low intensity exposure and the control limit will not be exceeded. The work is only considered to be short duration if the total time spent on the work is less than two hours and no individual spends more than one hour on the work in a seven-day period." Removing the old boiler would not take over 2 hrs, No dilemma, do RA and ensure controls and replace boiler.

Breakdown and repair of a boiler is foreseeable and there is an onus on the employer or social landlord to consider this risk via appropriate assessment (not applicable in private domestic situation). In real life, the chances of such an assessment being done are pretty remote. "Survey", sampling and analysis etc. - let's get real here chaps. As with electrical switch gear, the best the surveyor could do would be to "presume" the presence (or otherwise) and then only on the basis of what he can see. Determination of content of gaskets, ropes etc would require a strip-down destructive analysis and test - all well beyond practicality or the safety competencies of any Asbestos Surveyor, all of which would leave you with a defunct boiler!!!! Down to industry knowledge and experience then (much the same as the info available on storage heaters) from manufacturer's data, age etc. There are some asbestos-containing items such as gaskets and perhaps ropes that could be covered by appropriate and specific non-licensed task training - off the job training! Remembering too that (just as is the case with electrical work) there are things that can be done near these ACMs without actually disturbing them - awareness training would cover that. Beware the above advice regarding emergency work. You need a waiver from HSE, there are still rigorous controls to follow, and if the ACM involved is very friable insulation (e.g. sprayed asbestos) then you can forget that too!

Ron the HSE do not give waivers, it is the Regs that set the times and control limits , Back boards, insulation or what ever, planned replacement or emergancy stay within limits.